London fire

When other tower blocks/schools/hospitals etc are investigated ( for suspect cladding) I think you will find all sorts of councils may have given it the nod through, not simply Tory councils.

Central government grants which result from central government policies help to determine to a large degree what services can be afforded locally - although councils of course set priorities - apparently the flower tubs etc in the naice areas of K&C are a joy to behold

It does sound complictaed Rigby but it will hopefully come out, what the council did and ok'd and anybody higher up who should be monitoring.
I don't think there will be anywhere to hide for them, and there mustn't be.

The mayor of London had a say in it, too.
Boris, as it was when the plans were passed. It's not just the local council.

You're probably right - and I wouldn't for one minute think it was only Tory councils but I would ask the macro question about the impact of neo liberal economics and the resultant decline in the role of the state on the current situation. Since Thatcher, the responsibility of all governments for providing decent social housing has changed beyond all recognition and not for the better

Well rar I absolutely agree - I don't mean this in a vindictive way but we do need answers and we may need to apportion blame. One colleague of mine always says 'it's not the blame game , it's the fair blame game'
Well, friends are expected shortly and I've got some prep to do so I'm signing off - have a good evening everyone

Teresa May being called a murderer is disgusting. Why aren't these protesters helping , as we did in similar y situations during the war? Excuse for demos, notice they had time to get megaphones. What happened we may neer know. Culture British "keep calm and carry on" not being used her by those who are happy to use Britain as a refuge. It is awful but we do not know what happened or the cause. Sadly returning from Canada today. Do not hear much re shouting mobs here.I will no doubt get a backlash . It could have been arson. If they were raising concerns and nothing being done why did they not demonstrate then.

I thought arson had been ruled out?

I think arson has been pretty much ruled out.

A lot of the buck stops with the council, which still seems incapable of action or communication, but keeping building regulations up to date and enforced is the responsibility of government. There seems to have been plenty of lobbying by informed and responsible bodies such as the Fire Protection Association, but no political will.

Maybe at that earlier stage when they were being ignored, they had to opt to 'Keep calm and carry on' a bit longer?
Since that failed and they're faced with this disaster perhaps they're now thinking
'Oh gosh, chaps. That didn't work. Let's raise our voices and maybe someone might listen!'

I think I would be angry if I was one of the tenants. The tenants had frequently raised their concerns and they were seemingly ignored. Anger is also a recognised stage in grieving. It is totally different from a wartime situation.

Mari so you think that all the protests are being led by refugees? That they should Keep Calm and Carry On? Carry on doing what exactly, living in unsafe buildings?

Many people have turned up to help and there isn't that many people to help, people have vanished. The community has provided most of the support that should have been provided by the government. They have helped and now they are angry.

The right wing press are doing the same thing that the Sun did after Hillsborough, please don't believe their lies.

Of course people are angry Marieleez. Do you really think that people who have watched their friends and families die in front of them or have to see them in hospital critically injured or who have lost every single thing they own and who don't even know where their home is going to be from now on need anyone to stir them up? Keep calm and carry on - that's easy to say when such a terrible, absolutely avoidable death hasn't befallen your family and friends.

I find your comment "Culture British "keep calm and carry on" not being used her by those who are happy to use Britain as a refuge" despicable.

The Borough website beggars belief. It refers enquirers to the Govt. website (which seems OK) but all it has for today is an announcement that the Town Hall is closed because of damage caused on Friday night, and that Council people have been helping at other locations.

One has to ask whether the Council has any crisis management plans at all, or is it just running scared? One dreads to think how it would cope if there was a major incident at, say, Chelsea Football Club.

They are bound to be angry but in the March yesterday the Social Workers Party were there too with banners - Tories Out.

Yes, grumppa, I agree.
Just think of the response to Manchester and this one - so different.

This is interesting. It's from an article about a fire safety officer in the Observer.

"There are clear signs in all this of a major scandal in the making that extends far wider than housing blocks. The Observer has learned that successive governments have commissioned and paid for – over the past 12 years – a series of reports into the efficiency and cost-effectiveness of sprinkler systems in the construction of new buildings, including schools and care homes. All have concluded beyond any doubt that they should be used.

Yet last year fire experts were enraged when ministers decided to loosen, not tighten, regulations to allow new schools to be built without sprinkler systems at all. The need to build more schools fast and cheaply appeared to have prevailed. “Everybody bombarded the ministers in education,” says King. “Meetings took place with ministers and they went back to have another look at their guidance and it is still pending today, because they are still trying to hedge their bets.”

It is understood that in March or April this year Barwell agreed in principle to meet the all-parliamentary group for the first time, but the meeting never happened because May called a general election and Barwell, no longer a member of parliament, moved to Downing Street to advise her.

Above all, the Grenfell Tower fire is a human disaster – but for May and the Tories it is fast developing into a political one, too."

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/17/tragedy-grenfell-tower-lives-money-fire-safety

When did money become more important than people's lives.

Lots of people are angry with the tories, for very good reasons.

He also asks whether deregulation has been to blame. “Those who mock health and safety, regulations and red tape need to take a hard look at the consequences of cutting these and ask themselves whether Grenfell Tower is a price worth paying. Nowadays, we would not dream of building towers to the standards of the 1970s, but their inhabitants still have to live with that legacy. It may well be the defining outcome of this tragedy that the worst mistakes of the 1960s and 1970s are systematically torn down.”

Sadiq Khan writing in the Observer.
The problem is it wasn't the building that was the problem, it was external cladding.
External cladding is cheaper and easier than internal. That's why it is used. The actual building should have been safe for many more years. Another problem is the height, too high for ladders to be used. There are places where blocks have been refurbished by removing the top few storeys. They are then rented out to individuals or couples, not families. Families need gardens.
The residents were sent letters yesterday telling them to stop letting their kids play on the grass!!!!
Stupid, stupid council.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/17/tower-block-fire-warnings-grenfell-victims

www.theguardian.com/public-leaders-network/2017/jun/17/architects-grenfell-tower-fire-was-an-avoidable-tragedy

I agree with all of the above. There is nobody responsible any more for specification of suitable materials, which is why developers are able to get away with using the cheapest, not the safest materials.
That used to be the bane of my husband's job, trying to persuade developers or builders to go for the safest materials. Each job used to have specifications to read through hundreds of pages thick. I used to wonder how many builders understood it all.

How many people are still prepared to mock health and safety rules now?

Mari what on earth makes you think the protesters have not been helping?

You've just arrived back in the UK, so perhaps you don't realise that it's the community that has provided most of the support so far, along with local churches and organisations, and public service heros like the police, fire service and the NHS. More than the government's £5 million has already been raised through sites like justgiving and big business like Sky.

Even TM has now said the initial response was not good enough.

It wasn't arson and the tenant who lived in the flat where the fire started has already been identified by the DM and subsequently other media (although it has been told not to continue to do so) . There are huge questions to be answered about the cladding used on the building, which is banned in countries like the USA and Germany - and is thought to be the cause of a fire in Australia in 2014.

You might also be unaware that residents' concerns about fire safety have been ongoing since 2013, but particularly since the refurbishment of the building in 2016. Also that the recommendations of the last major tower block fire in 2009 have not been yet implemented (another London block of council flats where the fatalities were also mainly immigrants or ethnic minorities).

If I was a friend or relation of the victims, or lived in another tower block I'd have be banging on the door of the council asking for more information too. Actually, if I lived locally I would join the protesters. (My only reservation is the media keep showing Socialist Worker protesters holding up placards and I think this creates a false impression of who is protesting.)

And since you brought up the war, you might like to know it looks like this building fire will be the worst in terms of fatalities since then.

I could go on, but a lot has happened in the last 4 days and I suggest you catch up on the details of this tragedy before making ill-informed remarks.

What we know so far - BBC
Grenfell Tower fire - the Guardian

Are you a genuine poster Marie ?

Just looked in search - yes, I see you are. Sorry about that

I've got steam coming out of my ears