London fire

Although that does sound like pupils or ex pupils setting the schools on fire during the Summer Holidays, which seems to happen more than you would think.

I didn't know that daphne. I just looked it up. This was in the I in 2016:

"Government ministers have been heavily criticised after quietly abandoning the requirement for fire sprinklers to be fitted in new schools, in what has been called a “retrograde step” by fire chiefs."

..... "The move has been lambasted by fire officers and follows two recent major school fires.

"...... More than 75 firefighters were called out to tackle a blaze at Selsey Academy in Sussex on 21 August leaving the structure “effectively a skeleton”, while on 24 August, 12 fire engines tackled a blaze at Cecil Jones Academy in Southend-on-Sea."

This doesn't suggest to me that we have a "caring" - or even a responsible - Conservative government.

No, I'm not kidding.

You are kidding dd? How can that be?

Yes dd - and what does that say about the value placed on the lives of our children?

The reason tennants are told to stay in their flats is because each one is supposed to be safe for a certain time. During this time the fire service will put out the fire, or if things become unsafe they will come and lead you out of the building. In the first instance it was thought the flats' fire safety had been compromised by the refurbishment, but then the focus changed to the cladding and the gas pipes fitted outside each flat. That's my understanding anyway.

The requirement for all new schools to be fitted with sprinkler systems has also just been abolished.

The other major concern is there was no requirement to retrofit fire safety measures new buildings are legally required to provide. It's not just tower blocks, it could be something like a care home. The whole subject is not new, but the cost was always considered prohibited.

I actually said 'first and foremost I would be glad to be alive' Eloethan
And I have been in a house fire, one that happened during the night, so I do know slightly how it feels.
I agree with what you are saying.....! That's why I ask about the point of it.
If there is blame ( sounds like cladding and or refurbishment) then blame will be apportioned, and it will all come out with an inquiry.
My beef is that certain posters are condemning just about everything and making comments constantly that in their view the survivors will be badly treated!
I should think that the 'evil Tory government' cares just as much as anybody else
And it is in their own cynical interests ( if nothing else) politically to see that all are rehomed as near as is practical and possible.

when I say previous I mean retired

Oh, I thought I read somewhere that a previous fire safety officer (not working on this but similar buildings) had said that each flat is a self-contained fire resistant block for up to one hour.

I think the worlds press has noticed that dd

The trouble is with this tragedy is that there has been a long history of the council neglecting social tenants and wanting to clear them out. It was happening when I lived there and has become worse as land prices have reached stratospheric levels. There is already a history of tenants not trusting the council.

The initial response was appalling. There were hundreds of traumatised people wandering about, just not knowing what was going on. It's no wonder they were frightened and rumours were rife.

If you know the borough, you know that the super rich live next door to some of the most deprived people in the country. There could hardly be a more visible and potent symbol of divided Britain.

Wilma I think - hope- that things will be different this time and there will be no cover-ups and the right thing will be done.

Two very apposite examples Wilma - that is exactly what happens

I am not sure the hour safety is right jalima as the refurbishment compromised this.

Each flat was - apparently - sufficiently fire resistant for an hour so that, if as happened here, a fire occurred in one flat the residents could be evacuated by the Fire Brigade and the fire put out. Unfortunately, because of the cladding and windows being open on a hot night, the fire spread up the outside of the building so rapidly that tragedy ensued.
Coupled with a blocked exit door to the staircase, fire alarms being inadequate and the advice for residents to stay in their flats and wait to be rescued was a recipe for disaster.

Firemen thought they had put out the blaze in the one flat where it started for it to take hold in the cladding outside.

As this cladding has been the cause of fires in other high rise buildings in other countries then the warnings were there.

It's already interesting to see how different las are responding to the call for inspections of tower blocks - some have already committed to installing sprinkler systems, some have identified what sort of cladding has been used and are writing to tenants, there is some good practice going on but I would say that central government has a very very clear role here to keep the pressure up and to ask for very regular progress reports from all las with tower blocks

Because roses the needs could go on for years, the rest of their lives even. There will be a huge cost to this tragedy and however well meaning this government is right now, as time goes by future governments will not want to be bound by those promises. As the rawness passes over years, people will forget how angry they felt and not be as outraged or willing to protest against the backtracking. The victims and their supporters get worn down to deter them. We've seen it so many times before. The NHS contaminated blood scandal and Hillsborough come to mind straight away.

Exactly Jalima and it would be wrong to spread comments on here or any forum to say that the residents of nearby blocks and the fire survivors won't be treated well in the near future.

Agitators would get nowhere if the situation had been handled properly from the start -there would be nothing to agitate against.

You said you would just be "glad to be alive" rosesarered. I was pointing out that you have no idea how you would feel after surviving such an experience. Emotions following such a terrible event are rarely so upbeat and clear cut - contrary to what you say, many people report feeling guilty about being alive.

Especially for people who have a family to look after, the combination of insecurity re future housing, schooling, etc., coupled with those feelings of guilt, must make everything seem pretty overwhelming at the moment.

We don't have all the facts - when do we ever have all the facts about anything? What we do know is: some residents have over a period of years written to the council voicing their fears about the safety of the building; the council has consistently ignored those concerns; the refurbishment was mainly on the exterior of the building and cladding was used that has been said by experts to be unsuitable for high rise buildings and which has been banned in the US and Germany; there was no functioning fire alarm system, no sprinkler system and inadequate provision of fire extinguishers; there were issues with regard to fire doors and access to entrance doors; there was conflicting information as to evacuation procedures ..... and so it goes on. That's quite a few facts so far - and many of them suggest that this terrible conflagration and consequent loss of life could have been avoided.

The danger is that in all the turmoil and chaos that has ensued more chaos could begin because certain groups are agitating for social unrest and will use this tragedy and the people involved. Do they care about the residents? They will say they do but is that true?

The authorities need to do the right thing from now on in caring for the families now and in the future and the government and local authorities need to take the opportunity to look at their social housing tower blocks to ensure they are safe for residents.
Otherwise this tragic event could become the flash point for groups who will use it for their own ends.

Yes ww and gg. It would be somewhat foolish to base our beliefs as to what is likely to happen in the future without taking into account what has happened in the past.

Yes, it isn't always possible to house people who want social housing in London, there just isn't enough, but in this case am betting that they do