London Fire -2

GG MK 2

"The first comment I quoted was not yours POGS - the second one was."

I am not interested in who said what in your post at one time I am responding to the points you raise concerning my posts.

Being angry does not necessarily mean you go to pieces POGS. Indeed it can sometimes fuel people to do things they never expected they could under other circumstances.

As for not having, or at least being able to express emotion, hasn't that been the downfall of Mrs May? Simply because we are human beings we need to feel people understand and feel. The best of politicians - and people generally - will be able to show that (and actually feel it - we don't want any psychopaths) while channelling it and putting it to good use for the people who have, temporarily, given them power..

I stand by my statement of "shameful politics".

To demand answers NOW when the answers are not available is not clever.

Its pathetic... much like a spoiled child demanding sweeties before the sweetie shop is even open!

How can anyone give, what they themselves do not yet have?

If anyone can explain how something (anything) can be brought out of thin air (as if by magic) on the orders of a few crazed MP's then I would love to know.

Just a difference of opinion gillybob although it seems to have made you as heated as they felt. Perhaps everyone has reason to feel angry with the current happenings.

The five stages of grieving are for a personal bereavement

That is quite right; unless an MP had a relative or friend involved then for MPs to claim denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance as a result of this tragedy would be as if trying to claim the grief for themselves. Sorrow and anger yes, sympathy too, then working towards finding out what went wrong and ensuring it is put right throughout the country is what is required of our MPs and Council leaders nationwide.

Until the report is completed demands for answers are futile.

As for not having, or at least being able to express emotion, hasn't that been the downfall of Mrs May -

Not expressing emotion in public is quite different to not having any or being unable to express it to those who went to No 10 to meet her.

Just to clarify:
where she expressed emotion in private according to those who did meet her.

Have you never grieved for something or someone not directly close to you Jalima? I really don't think anyone of us can tell other people what it means and how they would or should react. That seems a little proscriptive towards someone else's feelings.

It seems to me, having watched it, (and I know no more about how they are feeling than you do) that the were making the point that these answers are needed as swiftly as possible. Many tower blocks are still being inspected but we know three have this cladding and we know how quickly the government and local government moved when it was an actual emergency. If I lived in one of those tower blocks I would be expecting them to press the point home, even if it made one or two Gransnetters upset because they thought an MP sounded, or may even be, angry - my life might depend on it.

That is quite right; unless an MP had a relative or friend involved then for MPs to claim denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance as a result of this tragedy would be as if trying to claim the grief for themselves

Sadly, Jalima, grief is rather like love, there is always enough to go round. I certainly felt denial - no, this can't be true; anger about how it could have been allowed to happen, bargaining "please don't let the children be in there", etc., are you suggesting I stole someone else's grief. I promise you I am grieving for all of them but there will be plenty of grief for the poor people who have actually lost those close to them. I wish mine could lessen theirs but unfortunately that isn't the way of it. I actually find your view of grief doesn't agree with my experience.

Not expressing emotion in public is quite different to not having any

You really are trying to have it both ways Jalima and it seems - I may be wrong - purely politically based. I did not say that May should have been expressing emotion in public, etc., just that this seemed to add to the picture she presented which did not seem to be what people wanted at that time.

Equally, if your are going to excuse Conservative May for not being able to express her emotions then you really have to excuse those Labour MPs asking questions for being the type of people who need to do so.

These emotions play to the country in different ways. Perhaps they shouldn't. You and I know that these are just people being themselves but you are prepared to castigate the Labour MPs for being themselves while asking for May to be excused.

I was just reading a comment on MN, which I had not actually thought about, but, which makes complete sense.

Most of the surviving residents are completely traumatised. Many of them are frightened to be housed any higher than street level, so the new blocks may not be entirely suitable for such traumatised folk.

Several people have raised the insurance point.

1. Life insurance and accidental death. No problem if there is a death certificate.

2. Contents insurance. Should not be a problem.

3. Buildings insurance. Council block policy; no problem for tenants. Clarification needed for those who have bought their flats.

It would be good to see a statement from the Association of British Insurers (there may be one, but If so I've missed it).

However, the liability insurance could be a nightmare.

I was wondering about the insurance position - possibly some of those unfortunate people did not have insurance - I hope they get given all they need to get going again.

A couple of interviewees I saw said that after the interior refurb they'd spent quite a bit on furniture and decorating so couldn't afford insurance. Maybe the wrong priorities but I feel sorry that they had to choose and could understand their desire to make the most of their homes.

There is a report on MN that says that Johnson sold off a fire station, that is now being developed by a Tory doner.

ww this issue has already been a problem with the hotels that survivors were being offered. At least two families were offered rooms in high rise hotels. Obviously this caused distress.

Correct me if I am wrong, but as far as I can tell, today this business about wanting answers now mainly relates to whether or not it was illegal to use the cladding on Grenfell Tower. The answer appears to be no, it isn't but the materials behind the cladding are relevant because those materials could provide protection i.e. closer to the building. The truth is, no matter what answer TM gave at PMQs, she would be on a losing wicket.

Just to add, the new flats will be fully furnished, so that should help with the lack of contents insurance.

Channel 4 looking at some high rise in Plymouth. My God they looked grim. What a way to treat people.

Jalima, I did not like to disagree with you earlier as I had had the TV on but I also had headphones on, doing some work for my daughter, so thought I might have missed something.

However, I have now watched again the statement and the debate and I could not see any anger at all. I was very impressed with TM being so across her brief- although of course, - that is what we would hope, but what really impressed me were the ordinary constituency MPs - on both sides. The were amazingly knowledgeable and asked extremely erudite questions with the needs of their constituency at the heart of them - not a single show of anger. At most they sounded a little forceful a couple of times but that was because, I thought, the Speaker was getting as many question in as possible, and was hurrying them.

Gracesgran

I thought I was pointing out a fact rather than being partisan. Anyone who has not lost someone dear to them or gone through the agony themselves may feel empathy but will not be going through the five stages of grieving which are denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance and everyone - MPs are human too - who has any empathy with the people who lived in the tower, will feel this.

Anger will fuel action we hope, but demanding the results of a report before it is completed is futile.

I am finding your posts rather a strange interpretation of what I said too.

I actually find your view of grief doesn't agree with my experience.
And I cannot begin to tell you how angry that remark has made me

In fact, I am shaking and extremely upset at the remarks you have made about me. How dare you presume to think how I feel about anything?

And I have no idea why you think this Until the report is completed demands for answers are futile which was in response to what a couple of other people posted should mean I am castigating any MP in particular.

But there was no anger Jalima. I was not going to argue with you because I was a little distracted as I have said above but I have watched it again and was most impressed by all sides.

Nevertheless, you are still telling other people how they may feel. I just don't think it is reasonable to do that. Peter Whittle, the Group Leader of UKIP on the London Assembly is on at the moment and sounds close to tears - is that not allowed?

You seem to be extremely angry all round. I have my experience of grief and you put forward your view. All I said was that my experience does not agree (is not the same as) your description. How on earth can that make you angry? Your remark is extremely offensive. Are you really saying I must feel how you tell me to feel?

I have no idea who post Thu 22-Jun-17 20:09:22 is to but I am assuming not to me - some other poor soul bearing the brunt of your anger

No-one else has made me angry. But the assumptions of me which you have posted seem strange and illogical.

I am not an angry person but I do not like being accused of things I am not.

I cannot 'own' their grief although I feel deeply for them and may have wept for those involved in all the tragic events recently and can assume how anguished they feel and must have felt. But it is not my place to grieve as I am fortunate enough not to have lost anyone in these tragedies.

It would be a tremendous conceit and do all the relatives and friends a disservice to claim that I own their grief and will be going through all the stages of grief too.

It is up to the rest of us, from MPs through to the general public, to keep up the pressure to ensure that the relatives and survivors are cared for and that the possibility of this ever happening again is eradicated. Going through the stage of grief which is depression will not help them.