London Fire -2

"those poor people" involved have voices Annie and they are using them, unfortunately people like you dismiss them as unrepresentative, or as only volunteers. No one is being an 'armchair detective' simply asking that these people be listened to and their requests recognised. History has shown that only when full attention is paid to the voices of people affected and involved can a satisfactory outcome be achieved. Do you think the Hillsborough people were able to think clearly? And if they were why aren't the Grenfell survivors? There could be estimates of the dead based on the numbers thought to be the tenants in each flat, but this hasn't happened, much easier to slowly release the increasing toll and hope the righteous anger is dissipated.

I realised you used the police corruption just as an example Eleothan , I think a big difference in the thinking between those poor people involved and armchair detectives , I wouldn't expect them to think clearly , I think it better if we who were not in anyway involved should be able to think clearly . Such as accusations of withholding the number of dead, doesn't take a pea brain to work out this may never be possible .

I was just giving examples anniebach. I mentioned the police cases not because I thought the police have any responsibility for or involvement in the fire (although their role will be pivotal from now on I would think), but to demonstrate that cover-ups have happened. Nobody knows yet exactly what happened and so to make allegations about any individual, public authority or commercial concern would be jumping the gun. What I was saying is it is perhaps unwise to suggest that all "conspiracy theories" are unquestionably without foundation.

I do understand why the residents of Grenfell and other affected properties are mistrustful. Since experiencing this terrible fire and losing perhaps family and friends , and their homes, they have discovered some very unapalatable things about the refurbishment - that there had been warnings about the materials used and the type of construction, and concerns raised about many other safety issues, all of which were ignored. If it were you, would you not feel deeply suspicious of all the parties involved?

Doent ryse too it anny, I now yu hav that disleksia thing

Jen, I don't care that I am a grotty at spelling, enjoy a giggle when I make an error , I am not comfortable with ill manner people getting a cheap shot .

Never had to read adverts asking for volenteers, I have phone calls asking me if I can help.

Because they have only just arrived?
Because they are wives or mothers and didn't need them?
Bacause they are children born here and didn't need them?

It says they will not conduct checks; are you saying the home office should do so?

none of them have papers to prove their status
If they have applied their details will be with the home office. No proof needed.
If they haven't applied to the home office, why not?

None of them have paperwork to prove their status.
Giving them 5 years as with any other person arriving here would be much better.

What, so you can stay for a year and then be sent back where you came from?

There is no amnesty for anyone here illegally in this statement.

'The immigration minister, Brandon Lewis, told MPs the move was in recognition of the fact that some foreign nationals directly affected by the fire did not wish to engage with the authorities because of their concerns about their unresolved immigration status or because their permission to stay in Britain was about to expire.'

Unresolved immigration status means they had applied but had no response yet.

this is really going to make them all come forward, isn't it?
I know if I was in this country illegally I would be grabbing the opportunity.

I cannot see how there can be lies , the police were not in control , if there was a warning the cladding was a fire risk then Kensington and the other councils should face charges , any builder would confirm the dangers if the cladding carried a warning , well some builders

Until all the historical background leading up to the Grenfell fire has been examined, we don't actually know what is true and what is not. To dismiss concerns regarding a number of issues as being "conspiracy theories" is, I think, blinkered. If there has been some wrongdoing, there is a fair chance that those involved, and others connected to them, would prefer that it did not come to light.

Hillsborough is a case in question. Police officers conspired with one another (at the behest of senior officers) to write matching reports which placed the blame for the tragedy on the victims, rather than on a number of other factors but particularly the actions of senior police officers.

Had it not been for the video recording of a New York man, the original - and some might say more convenient - account that Ian Tomlinson had "fallen over" during a London demonstration because he was drunk, would have been accepted as the truth. In fact, he was shown to have been hit from behind by a policeman and pushed over. The New York businessman who gave the film to the Guardian said:

"The primary reason for me coming forward is that it was clear the family were not ­getting any answers."

If this man didn't have the video film to prove his account, perhaps he would have been labelled as a "conspiracist".

For years, some people employed in the building trade claimed they were the subject of a "blacklist" because they had campaigned for fair and safe conditions at work. The major construction businesses that were cited vehemently denied those allegations, but they were eventually proved to be true.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jul/05/grenfell-12-month-immigration-amnesty-for-survivors-announced

This is really going to make them all come forward, isn't it?

Why would misreading someone's name need correcting, Ana?

I imagine if someone volunteers they see the word volunteer quite a lot. It's on the noticeboards everywhere where there are volunteers that I know of.

Why would being mistaken about the spelling stop anyone from volunteering, durhamjen?

Just thought you might appreciate it, Annie.
Should have known better. Strange because I thought you volunteered for lots of things.

Oh just leave it off ab.

Still correcting posters spelling errors Jen? Does it make you feel good, give you a warm glow ?

www.kcmind.org.uk/news-article.asp?ID=136

Lots of information about volunteers on this.

www.indy100.com/article/everyone-should-watch-this-video-from-the-grenfell-tower-meeting-7823116

VolUnteers on this.

The news doesn't give info of the volenteers they are interviewing, just a name and volenteer

You will just have to find out by reading links or watching the news, like the rest of us do.

Not who do they think they are but who are they?

A conspiracy theory Jen, like May is a murderer, the council wanted the tower block demolished to get the tenants out of the borough ?

It's sounding hopeful with the judge - he seems to be listening now.As for the volunteers ( no inverted commas) - well who do they think they are? I think some of the comments about them are snide and unnecessary - on C4 news, I've seen brilliant ones being interviewed and as others have said, the Hillsborough campaign would never have happened without volunteers - the authorities were nowhere to be seen, too busy covering up and watching their backs.