London Fire -2

Since when did volunteers become a dirty word inasmuch as it has to be written as 'volunteers' - implying what?

Just sharing thoughts Whitewave, with anyone who chooses to read my post

annie Is your post directed at me or just a general remark?

So the government are to be charged with offences? I missed that on the news.

I am curious about these 'volenteers' who keep giving interviews, who are they? Where are they from? Do they not have employment? Do they work for a charity?

Questions from Mombiot

We don't allow defendants in court cases to select the charges on which they will be tried.

So why should the government set the terms of a public inquiry into its own failings?

We don't allow criminal suspects to vet the trial judge.

Why should the government approve the inquiry's chair?

Perhaps this is part of the reason that the survivors find trust difficult?

I still think the real issue is the setting of the terms of reference and it sounds as though there has been some movement on that this evening.

Annie it's a perfectly reasonable question, I was just clarifying my post.

Wilma,i was not referring to Corbyns letter, just thought we could discuss this calmly and so asked a reasonable question , well reasonable in my opinion. Judges are part of what choose to call the establishment, there will not be a black/Asian female judge who lives/lived in a tower block, even if there were she could be biased in favour of or against the victims. This decision has to be taken without emotion surely ?

I understand exactly what you are saying Iam. I do not believe that what he looks like or what strata of society he comes from should matter any more than what the survivors look like or what part of society they come from.

To ensure justice we need to work within the law. This judge was thought to be unsuitable because of judgements he made. The system we have is not based on sympathy but justice. There was an ability to appeal and the team working for Ms Nzolameso won that appeal. This is how our justice system works. It is not the place for social issues to be fought. They must be fought and law must be challenged and changed where necessary but this enquiry is not the place and I cannot see how attacking this man personally helps.

I am afraid I saw it another sign of Theresa May's lack of strength and also of understanding that she let the historic child abuse enquiry get into the mess it did. I do not believe these enquiries are the place for the victims/survivors to set the remit; they are the place for them to find the truths and where the outcomes may set the framework for the politicians to fight for change.

The request from the woman speaking for Justice 4 Grenfell seems pretty reasonable to me
Sue replied: "We're not in the position of selecting one individual, what we had hoped, or assumed, would have happened would be that there would be a list of maybe three or four put forward with their credentials, some of their background, and that there would be a consultation over a choice of one of those suitably qualified."
So giving people some sort of input and choice. It might also be someone with some knowledge of buildings/fires/social housing rather than a judge whose main area of knowledge is commercial law. Justice must be seen to be done.

Annie my understanding of the request for consultation in JC's letter to TM was for him (or the Labour Party) to be included in the consultation about the terms of reference. I didn't read it as referring to the victims or tenants.

I struggle with how much influence victims/survivors can have in public enquiries. I'm fence sitting and use the word 'struggle' genuinely.
The main argument against the Judge seems to be based on himbeing Establishment and here having been a successful appeal against a Housing decision he made. Most of our Judges are Establishment, white (upper) middle class, males. They went to private schools and then to Oxbridge or similar red brick universities.
Most Judges will have been successfully appealed. That's one of the positives in our Judicial system. I only know this Judge was successfully appealed after supporting the rehousing of someone away from support networks. I'm pleased the appeal succeeded because that is happening far too often, with former residents of London being rehoused in less expensive areas.
The dispersal system for asylum seekers means they're moved or of areas where there are large numbers of similar families to 'spread the need'. This has meant for example, African Christian families being isolated in towns with large white, or Pakistani Muslim populations. It's isolating and cruel . I wish more would appeal this kind of thing.
But - I remain uncertain about the best, least potentially confrontational way of selecting Judges for public enquiries. The enquiry into organised abuse no longer has a Judge leading it. Some survivors and many lawyers are unhappy about that, difficult isn't it

By the way, that was tongue in cheek.

Annie
Let's save squillions of £s and have Kangaroo courts and string up the guilty

It been found to be a logical way so I'm not surprised WKf.

Should victims be consulted on a judge? Choose the remit of an enquiry?

That said, his open letter to Theresa May on 16th June asked for consultation on the terms of reference for the enquiry and clearly that request fell on deaf ears.

I think Jeremy Corbyn suggested just what GGM2 said about there being 2 parts to the enquiry

Jeremy Corbyn - Two part enquiry

He called for a two-part inquiry, with the first part looking at the specific issues around Grenfell and reporting back quickly, and the second part looking at the national issues.

What I find truly dreadful about what is happening is that people traumatised by the loss of their homes and possessions, the deaths of friends and relatives, some with families still being treated in hospital have to fight for the sort of inquiry they want. Someone should be listening to them and moving heaven and earth to provide them with the reassurance they want. Instead as usual the establishment closes ranks.

speye.wordpress.com/2017/07/04/the-grenfell-inquiry-liar-theresa-may/

I do believe it should be dealt with rather like a plane crash were they find out enough to ensure all other planes are safe and then move on to the whys, etc.
That is exactly what needs to be done - the priority is to make sure they know exactly what happened and put things right across the country to ensure it does not happen again.

Whilst nothing on this scale has happened before, other fires have and nothing was done - this time things do have to change - and quickly.

The chain of command does need to be investigated but that will take longer.

I don't think they will ever have a final total or a full list of names. It may just be impossible to identify some of the people who died.

I think the building should be demolished and a memorial garden made there with the names of those who perished and perhaps another memorial to those unknown who may have died whom we will never know. It should be respected as a last resting place in accordance with the different religions of the residents.

I think that's a very good idea GracesGran Re the Air Accident Investigation Branch.

As Iam puts it so well, there has to be a balance of thinking. As well as bodies never being recovered from 9/11 I have mentioned on here before that I heard a women being interviewed who had not had her brothers body identified until a year after the event.

Certainly conspiracy theories do not help, nor does not acknowledging the issues involved. There is a political aspect to all this which also cannot be ignored but again, should be dealt with in a measured manner. People involved will be angry for a very long time as will some of those dealing with this but at some point - and it is probably past now - those in charge and trying to help must override their anger and despair and act professionally while expressing their sympathy. You do need people who have this experience and not someone who just empathises in these roles.

It will take such a long time to get to the bottom of all this but I do believe it should be dealt with rather like a plane crash were they find out enough to ensure all other planes are safe and then move on to the whys, etc. I don't think it would be a bad thing to bring in someone from the Air Accidents Investigation Branch to help with the method of getting to the bottom of this.

This is all separate to looking after and caring for the people involved and muddying the already horrifyingly muddied pool by mixing up all the needs and the different skills needed to carry these out is not helping in my view.

I am finding it all really distressing . So much grief and the political use of the tragedy.

Comparing this with Hillsborough , conspiracy theories, only cry we haven't heard yet is for public hangings.

'Lord of the Flies' makes gentle reading after reading this thread and listening to the news,

There cannot be an accurate number of fatalities for the reasons Wilma has given, plus -
The possibility of illegal immigrants hiding there, the probability of sub letting, visitors that night.

It took years for the truth of Hillsborough to come out because the police covered up so much, what reason have the police for covering up and lying about this tragedy?