London Fire -2

Of course the difficulty in being certain about the number of fatalities is due to the reasons Wilma sets out. I also agree with her comment that reports of the police hiding the real total are unfounded. What would they gain from conspiring to hide the numbers of dead? Some bodies were not recovered after 9/11. This tragedy isn't on the same scAle but some of the same factors have to be acknowledged. I'm as critical as most about the ineffective response of the council after the tragedy, as well as the risks in lowering fire safety guidelines etc. This situation is dreadful enough without conspiracy theories about why the number of dead may never be fully confirmed, or loved ones allowed to bury their relatives.

I read several days ago that the police and coroner have been unable to access some parts of the building yet because they're still too dangerous to access at the moment. There's a problem with the upper floors in particular, which is understandable.

This has to be the major factor in announcing the number of confirmed deaths. We know at one point when the building was still burning that the fire service had accessed all floors and confirmed there were no further survivors. Its obvious that the building will be demolished at some point and I wouldn't be surprised if a thorough search of the whole building never takes place because it's just too dangerous.

There's been a lot of speculation about never knowing the true numbers of fatalities and survivors because of the immigration aspect. I think the dangerous state of the building is the much more likely to be the reason for never knowing the true numbers.

My guess is those most affected by the tragedy understand this, even though it is not what they want to hear. I think reports of the police hiding the real total are gossip and speculation.

An interesting opinion here from Jolyon Maugham, a well-respected QC who is advising some of the Grenfell families.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/03/grenfell-residents-boycott-superficial-public-inquiry

Will you stop twisting my words please Trisher. I am not arguing, or unable to argue. There is no way the residents can have answers now. It will take a very long time.

Now you carry on your solo argument because I am choosing not to have one.

trisher three excellent posts. May said they would have input into the terms of reference and they clearly haven't. This is wrong. That's why I'm critical of the judge - he should have known she promised this and if he doesn't, what else doesn't he know. Of course it should be one enquiry with comprehensive terms of reference that is then staged - so stage 1 would produce the preliminary report into the causes etc, then later stages deal with chsins of accountability, regulations etc. BTW I see DL appears to have replaced JC as the new devil incarnate.

GG MK2 You said
I agree it may not be what the residents want - they want answers now - but that will just not be possible
The residents simply want a comprehensive enquiry.. I don't think there is a "raised temperature" only a strong and reasoned argument which you are unable to argue is wrong, so I understand why you are reluctant to answer.

not should be no

trisher I don't feel I actually have to argue on your premise which has not relevance to anything I have said. There is a very raised temperature on this thread. I will discuss when it cools down.

GGMk2 can you give me any reason why the residents should not get what they want? This issue of time is irrelevant, staged reports can be made. All the evidence is that inquiries that fail to involve those involved do not produce acceptable conclusions and further measures have to be taken. Wouldn't it be so much simpler and more sympathetic to meet their requirements in the first place? There are so many examples of these useless inquiries we really should have learned by now.

Should have read that again, shouldn't I?
No judge is an expert on everything.

This is also important. No judge is not an expert on everything.

'A properly diverse expert panel to sit alongside the inquiry judge to advise on a variety of issues, including housing need, fire and safety construction.'

However, this is a good idea.

'Confirmation in writing from the home secretary within 28 days that undocumented survivors are given full UK citizenship.'

They have lost everything. They need to restart their lives.
It's the least that could be done considering the circumstances of the fire.

I agree it may not be what the residents want - they want answers now - but that will just not be possible and it behoves all the people involved in this to make that clear while assuring them that everything will be done to have a thorough and in depth review, including historical information and into all the companies and people involved.

Like this, trisher?

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jul/03/grenfell-survivors-issue-12-demands-to-pm-to-overhaul-response-to-tragedy

The problem with having a 'preliminary' enquiry is that it isn't what the residents want and it will probably take a long time to report, so leading to even more distrust, speculation and conjecture. It would be possible to have an enquiry with a comprehensive remit which would produce an initial report with safety requirements and a longer more detailed analysis of what happened that would deal with the residents' concerns.
It shouldn't be the government imposing things, but a community led process which recognises the residents' concerns

www.24housing.co.uk/news/council-to-fit-nearly-3000-new-fire-doors/

Well done, Cardiff.

Why does the fact that 80% of the people living there were muslims divert from the issue?
I would have thought it was very relevant.
If it wasn't for Ramadan, more could have died.

Have you read the article, Jalima?

It must be extremely distressing that people have not been able to bury their dead according to tradition; however, they have been reassured by Muslim scholars that normal rituals can be by-passed in these exceptional circumstances, as I am sure must happen if other, traumatic, death occurs.
I do not see what bearing faith has on this either.

All of this diverts from the issue:

Surely the government should be coming out and explaining that this is a preliminary enquiry to ensure that nothing the same happens elsewhere.
I agree Gracesgran and the priority should surely be that measures must taken as a matter of urgency to ensure that this can never happen again.

People need to hear that reassurance

Other investigations/enquiries will of necessity take much longer

This would be funny if it wasn't so serious.

skwawkbox.org/2017/07/03/fire-expert-anything-will-burn-in-govt-cladding-test-set-up-grenfell-video/

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jul/03/grenfell-survivors-issue-12-demands-to-pm-to-overhaul-response-to-tragedy

Sounds reasonable to me.

80% of those living in the tower were muslim.
It was Ramadan. Many families would have been together having a meal.
It's not a race card. It's fact.
Those people who have died should have been buried according to Islamic ritual.

'The Grenfell Muslim response unit estimated that 80% of those living in the tower were Muslim, although in the absence of comprehensive lists of residents and victims it is hard to be precise.

“We’ve been on the ground since the day of the fire, supporting, consoling and advising victims and families,” a spokeswoman said.

She said an added trauma for the families of victims had been not being able to bury their dead in accordance with Islamic customs and rituals, she added.

Muslim funerals usually take place as soon as possible after death. But the burial of bodies that have been recovered from Grenfell has been delayed by complex identification processes and the need for inquests to be opened.

The Grenfell Muslim response unit has been working with Eden Care, a specialist Muslim end-of-life and burial service. The two organisations have offered to organise funerals for Grenfell victims – including non-Muslims – without charge.

They have consulted Islamic scholars to reassure relatives that rituals to prepare bodies for funerals, such as washing and viewing the deceased, may be bypassed in exceptional circumstances.'

From the article.
The rest of it is mainly about one particular Muslim family. I don't care if you read it or not, but it's not making mischief.
It's trying to show some respect for another faith, something sadly lacking in some people.

Penstemmon , quite simple, the fact that many in the tower block were/are victims has been brought up two days running, no one except Jen seems to think the faith has not a thing to do with the fire

Thank you Petra, I cannot see what their faith has to do with the thread title - London Fire

I agree with you Gracesgran. There should be an initial inquiry in order that immediate measures can be put in place to stop something like this happening again. Then there should be an in depth inquiry with a much wider scope. May has not been at all clear as to how these matters are going to be dealt with and the anticipated time scale.

I don't personally think that the number of Muslim residents has any bearing on this. But I do think that, had the inhabitants of all these high rise blocks been high income, high status people, a tragedy on this scale would never have happened. The concerns of the residents, apparently expressed over a significant period of time, would have been listened to, investigated and, I think, acted upon.