Why so much surprise over Corbyn calling for Labour to Abstain?

Of course she is. However, my new young MP has probably done more work in her young life than roses has in all her years, definitely more for the unrepresented, charities and mental health.
The point is, roses, there is no need for parliament to stay the same, in the image of old fogeys like your MP.

Are you always quite so condescending to the young rose?

The young I know would take a very dim view of your attitude.

I expect your new MP will soon get used to Parliament and Westminster ways, they all do after a while, no doubt it's daunting, especially to younger new MP's.
They are relaxing rules on tie wearing for men, so that's a start....at least they don't have to wear wigs!
Tradition and regalia does have a part to play though, and most seem to enjoy it all.

On the Labour amendment.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/30/chuka-umunna-single-market-amendment-brexit-split-labour-party

Yes I watched that - good speech.

No. They hide behind attacks on Corbyn just as much as some on here.
They don't want to think about the harm the government is doing.

'Turning to this place, this building is intimidating. It reeks of the establishment and of power; its systems are confusing—some may say archaic—and it was built at a time when my class and my sex would have been denied a place within it because we were deemed unworthy. I believe that the intimidating nature of this place is not accidental. The clothes, the language, and the obsession with hierarchies, control and domination are symbolic of the system at large. But the most frustrating thing has been to sit opposite those people who tell me that things are better, and that suffering has lessened for my constituents. I would like them to come and tell the people who have been sanctioned that things are better. I would like them to tell that to the teacher in my constituency who was recently made redundant. I would like them to talk to the 16,500 people in County Durham in receipt of food parcels. I would like them to talk to the nurses, the junior doctors and the firefighters—come and tell them that years of austerity have improved their practice or their profession.'

From my new MPs speech.

Yes but they are the government they should know what they are doing.

Perhaps I'm expecting too much from this shower.

That's not important, whitewave. Much better to attack Corbyn.

Anyone got any idea what the Tories want?

Do the Tories know what they want?

You say what you want and see how much the other 27 countries will let you have after you have deserted them.
Better than saying no deal.

maizie I lthink that what Labour is doing is setting out its ideal.

This will be the starting point in negotiations.

So Starmer is indicating that too much movement from these points will be unacceptable.

Quite frankly too much movement from these points will be disastrous

Of course smoke and mirrors may well be employed.

2. Does it deliver the exact same benefits as we currently have as members of the single market and customs union

That's have your cake and eat it and everyone can have a unicorn country.

We cannot possibly leave the EU and enjoy exactly the same benefits we have today.

So has Norway, so maybe we are going to adopt the Norwegian model.

That sounds quite clear to me, whitewave.
I go along with that.
I particularly like 2.
That's a conundrum, certainly.
Can we get the exact same benefits? Not the way May is going, but we might through real negotiation, instead of May's flagwaving.
Red, white and blue Brexit?
France has a red, white and blue flag.

Can't get much shorter than a oneliner.

I liked Barry Gardiner's snippy comment about the EU tantrum on the Queen's speech being unhelpful.

Keir Starmers 6 points that Labour will look for in Tory negotiations otherwise they will not vote for Brexit.

The test is as follows

1. Does it ensure a strong and collaborative future relationship with the EU
2. Does it deliver the exact same benefits as we currently have as members of the single market and customs union
3. Does it ensure fair management of migration in the interests of the economy and communities.
4. Does it defend rights and protect and prevent a race to the bottom
5.Does it protect national security and our capacity to tackle cross border areas
6. Does it deliver for all regions of the UK?

durhamj ....... and perhaps, ( snippy) rather like your dear self?
We told you it didn't mean 'one liners' but as you have such a good grasp of the use of English you thought you knew better.

Rare to read anything amusing on the politics thread,

Corbyns cabinet -most of whom are newbies - voted with the whip out if loyalty to Corbyn. Nothing to do with clinging to their rapid promotion

They were frontbenchers. Now they can be backbenchers and have the freedom to defy the government when they feel an important principle is at stake, as Corbyn did.

May has already antagonised the EU with her very combative approach (she appears to see the "very difficult woman" label as a badge of honour). Corbyn is known to be a much more conciliatory person who prefers to try and identify the areas in which the negotiating parties have common ground, and move forward from there. I think his approach would be much more likely to yield positive results for both the UK and the EU.

I think there are many people who felt like Corbyn - not particularly enthusiastic about the EU but nor particulary enamoured with the alternative either.

Of course, it is a difficult position for Corbyn and for Labour, but no more so than for the Conservatives who also have their issues with MPs - and supporters - who don't really care whether we have good relations with the EU or not as long as we have a "hard" Brexit.

POGS Are you the same POGS that used to post a couple of years ago - your style of writing seems to have changed?

By the way, roses and Ana, snippy means being sharp and abrupt, you know, just like you two always are.

I've not been disappointed with Starmer.
He is showing that he knows the law.
You can't say that May is wrong by going for a hard Brexit, then criticise Starmer for trying to negotiate. That's what he's doing.

www.greenparty.org.uk/news/2017/05/02/caroline-lucas-full-brexit-speech/

How does this make the Greens anti-EU?

No, I mean yesterday, daphne.

A Labour amendment calling on the Government to end the public sector pay cap, introduce a higher minimum wage and increase taxes on the wealthy was defeated by 323 votes to 297.

All 12 Libdems abstained on that vote, which is why it was 26 majority.

WW

"leaving the EU can't at the same time mean that we remain in the single market. "
----

That is a point I have been saying for yonks but I have been chastised for saying so.

I have never noticed you have agreed with that point until this thread either.

I have been posting on the fact Labour and Keir Starmer in particular, as he is a Brexit Spokesperson , have been all over the place by saying Labour "Will end the free movement of people" but then go on to say they want to stay in the Single Market. I repeat Labour cannot keep saying that , they are being disingenuous.

It won't be missed by many I have repeatedly asked of posters such as yourself the following question but I have never received a reply.

'HOW' can you stay in the Single Market when the UK would 'HAVE TO' comply with the 4 Pillars/Freedoms enshrined in the EU? Even the EFTA / EEA countries have to abide by the Freedom of Movement of goods, capital, services and persons. The EU from The EU Commission, Merkel, Tusk, Juncker all say 'NO CHERRY PICKING' .

Keir Starmer came in for, quite rightly, a lot of comment after his Brexit Speech for not showing an understanding of that point, he faced in two directions and that is not possible.

Even on the day of the Queens Speech I heard Labour MP Jack Dromey spouting we must stay in the Single Market/Customs Union. When challenged how he did the usual , deflected .

Corbyn by not backing Chuka Umuna's Amendment and telling his MP's to Abstain has sent a clear message re his view on the Single Market. Labour must stop the charade of telling the voter Labour could negotiate for the UK to be able to stay in the Single Market and also 'End the free movement of people'.

I would hope the EU/UK negotiations could come up with a deal where we have access to the Single Market but it will only happen if the likes of Tusk, Merkel and Junker put economy before politics and stop the 'No cherry picking' 'Non negotiable' stance they have taken over The Free Movement of People.

Umuna has certainly set the cat among the pigeons for the Labour Party Leadership by calling for 'The UK should remain in the Single Market and the Customs Union' in his Queens Speech Amendment that's for sure.

PPS. An anti-Brexit movement doesn't necessarily has to be centrist. The Greens are anti-EU, but to the left of Labour on many issues.