Should Tony Blair comment on Brexit?

Dauntless the EU was not just set up as it is now -the idea was there - Churchill dreamed of it - but has been a gradual growing and changing - it started with the steel industry getting together and forming a Union in 1950 - this effectively stopped any one country having the ability to start a war as they were working together.

The UK could have been in on the very beginning of the Union but Atlee would not join - it is at least from1950 but the idea started earlier and there hasn't been a European war for 70 years - something which had not been the case for a very long time.

It is also vital to distinguish Liberalism from Neo-liberalism

It certainly is!

The axes of these graphs seem confusing. Libertarianism seems to be defined both as the opposite of fascism and the opposite of collectivism. Not all research into political theory is equally valid.

It is also vital to distinguish Liberalism from Neo-liberalism, which is a free-for-all capitalism.

Social Democrats and Liberals are, in my experience, so close in their beliefs as to be in agreement on most things. I would say far closer than the left and right wings of both the Labour and Tory parties.

'They' are not making them varian. It is a piece of research not, as you and I might make, one persons views.

Lies were common to both sides. The Remainers still insist that the EU brought about '70 years of peace'but the EU itself is only forty three years old?

How can there be war between France and Germany when the latter has barely any armed forces and France has long possessed nuclear weapons? Peace in Europe is only guaranteed by the NATO alliance.

He can say what he likes but he's pretty unpopular so he might be doing more harm than good.

GG what this graph is based on is the notion of two axes - left/right and libertarian/authoritarian. I think politics is much more complicated, and even looking at these two factors only, the judgements they make are quite subjective.

I am a Liberal, I do not want to see an authoritarian regime, but I also believe in social justice, an egalitarian concept which some may categorise as left-wing.

I dislike tribal politics, whether that is advancing the capitalist tribe or the collectavist/ trade union tribe. It should be possible to create a free and fair society in the UK, as already exists in Scandanavian countries.

Did he say he was speaking for the U.K ? No, he just have people there he has known for years, he is free to talk to who ever he wants surely

https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/201707/medium-880521-uk2010-where-the-parties-sit.png https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/201707/medium-940187-uk2017-where-the-parties-sit.png

2010 followed by 2017

That's just your opinion varian; they base the template analysis on facts. I know which I would believe when it comes to fact or opinion.

If you agree with your party stands for what does it matter? It may just mean that your view of left, right, authoritarian and libertarian are a little different to that of a standardised view of many more people. I notice the LDs have moved from just in the libertarian field (2110) to just in the authoritarian 92017) one. It's just my view but that seems right to me and where the change of leadership moved it to.

It's interesting to look at where they put Labour in 2010 and then in 2017. That makes me feel they know what they are doing. Perhaps those who felt comfortable in 2010 should be looking at their neighbours with similarities then as it now seems to be the those who thought the 2010 position was right may be the ones who are out of step as they were when the LP was very close to the right wing, authoritarian Conservatives in 2010 - not, I would have though, where many people would say the LP naturally sits.

Well, he is entitled to say what he wants, but that does not men that the EU fatcats are going to agree with him.

I have seen this before and am not at all convinced that it places any of our parties correctly. I would say the current Labour Party, as well as being quite far to the left, is also far more authoritarian than the LibDems.

Because of FPTP, many areas of the country only have two viable parties. In the area I have lived in for many years, these are the LibDems and the Tories. I became active in the Liberals when I had young children and was appalled at the poor funding of schools. One of my children, in her last year at primary school, was in a class of 41, which was illegal in Scotland even then. None of the Tory councillors on the Education Committee had a child in a county school. They were all privately educated and so did not care that we had the worst pupil/teacher ratio in England.

After some energetic campaigning we got a Liberal County Council elected and all the councillors on the Education Committee sent their children to county schools. They believed in good education for all and invested in it. As a school governor, I could see how much better it was.

When the SDP was set up and we met the local members, they seemed to be people who thought very much as we did, but had taken a bit longer to reach the same conclusion. My political heroine is Shirley Williams, who even now, in her late eighties, speaks such a lot of good sense. How I wish she could have been the first female PM.

I think if you read the LibDems manifesto, you will see that the party has many policies you can support, and I do not see it reflected accurately in that graphic.

www.libdems.org.uk/manifesto

Found it. If you go to About the Political Compass you will see the analysis and there are links to the literature. Here is the one I have copied over and a bit of their research too.

Perhaps it wasn't my bias that was showing

It wasn't my bias varian so much as the graphic someone put on recently saying where the parties sit. I did try and find it but couldn't remember which thread it was on. If anyone knows I will copy it over so you can see.

I must admit my personal view was that the Liberals have always sat to the right of centre and social democracy to the left - that was one reason why I didn't join the Lib-Dems as I felt it was more liberal the social democratic.

I agree varian , the Libs are not on the right .

I think there are very few who could use the terms left and right without their own bias intruding, GG.

Having been a LD member for many years, I know that, as in other parties, there ard different shades of opinion. I am further to the left than my husband, but I think the vast majority of LDs would describe themselves as left of centre.

Blair is, as I have already stated perfectly entitled to speak about Brexit. Whether anyone is listening is another issue.

But someone desparately needs to take charge. We are absolutely rudderless, the government is in chaos, without a single firm decision having been made by anyone.

It is really all quite appalling. We are a divided nation, but it seems to me that the one thing that may actually get us all back together is the demand to bring some intelligence and action to this whole Brexit business. The EU negotiators are almost dumbstruck by our incompetence.

The Lib Dems are not a centre party as they stand at the moment Varian - they are to the right.

Corbyn is still in the seventies so he is further back than twenty years ago

So what! New Labour stole the LP from those with views further to the left now those with views further to the left are stealing it back. What, in the scheme of things does any of this matter except to the obsessed. Move on, create something new; no one owns the past. New parties and ways of thinking would be the only thing that could justify the mess we are in at the moment with both the major parties.

There is no need for a new centre party. The Liberal Democrats want a UK which is open, tolerant, compassionate and fair and are the most strongly supportive of remaining in a reformed EU.

Corbyn is still in the seventies so he is further back than twenty years ago

Twenty years ago Anniebach and a lot of water under the bridge since then. I'm afraid Tony Blair is so discredited in the opinions of a large majority of people of all political persuasions that I don't think his opinions on anything are much valued or very helpful to the party he wishes to remain a part of. He has only his own actions to blame for that.

The bag of cats fight is on. Newspaper reports today saying that the Brexit faction is holding the administration to ransom and others that the Philip Hammond is undermining 'Brexit'. What a view to give the rest of the world.

Brexit Bulldog is looking as if he needs sleep - I expect he does. Barnier is looking in control and fresh as a daisy.

Sure did, annie!

It worked in 1997 Jen

I know Jen - everyone want to claim Labour's history but someone is going to have to be pragmatic in the end. Or perhaps the decide no one uses it in the future