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A comparison: JFK and Trump
(49 Posts)Kremlin back channels worked just fine for JFK
July 16 2017, 12:01am,
Niall Ferguson
Why is Donald Trump being roasted for using a key Kennedy tactic?
It is much worse than you thought. Not only have members of the president’s immediate family been secretly talking to Russia. I can also reveal that the president is a serial philanderer who is compulsively unfaithful to his wife. He suffers from severe medical problems, which he and his staff are concealing from the press. One of his mistresses is also romantically involved with a notorious gangster.
Speaking of organised crime, I understand that his campaign to get elected called on the mafia for assistance. He intends to appoint his brother to the key position of attorney-general. They plan to wiretap human rights activists.
In foreign policy the story is even worse. He is planning an invasion of a hostile country, which is almost certain to fail disastrously. He has established a confidential back channel which he intends to use in times of crisis to communicate secretly with the Kremlin. Yet he is willing to risk nuclear war. And he has no objection to the assassination of political enemies and coups against allied governments.
Yet this same president has the temerity to go to Europe and make speeches about the need to defend “western civilisation”.
The president I have just described is not, however, Donald J Trump, but John F Kennedy. This is not “what about-ism” — in other words, I am not trying to excuse the fact that President Trump’s son appears to have colluded (or at least considered colluding) with the Russian government last year. Indeed, I pointed out last October that the Kremlin connection was the biggest problem with Trump’s candidacy. I am merely pointing out that, when it comes to ethical conduct, it is far from clear which of these two presidents was worse.
As is now well known, Kennedy had numerous extramarital relationships: one was with Judith Campbell Exner, whose other lovers included the Chicago organised crime boss Sam Giancana.
“We’re a bunch of virgins,” grumbled Fred Dutton, secretary of the cabinet, “. . . and he’s like God, f**** anybody he wants to, any time he feels like it.” All this was known to the FBI director, J Edgar Hoover, as well as to Kennedy’s inner circle. But it went entirely unreported in the press.
His compulsive infidelity was only one of Kennedy’s many deceptions. Throughout his political career he concealed the severity of his medical problems (he suffered from acute back pain, hypothyroidism and Addison’s disease, for which he needed continual cortisone treatments).
As a senator, Kennedy deliberately missed the vote censuring Joseph McCarthy, who had more than once been a Kennedy house guest. He lied to his own brother about his decision to make Lyndon Johnson his running mate in 1960. His campaign may have called on mafia assistance to defeat Richard Nixon that year.
Intervening on behalf of the jailed Martin Luther King Jr had also helped Kennedy win the 1960 election, but that did not stop his brother Bobby — whom Kennedy appointed as attorney-general — authorising wiretaps on King’s phone three years later.
In foreign policy Kennedy combined callousness with recklessness. His questionable interventions ranged from an abortive invasion of Cuba to a bloody coup d’état in South Vietnam. On his watch the CIA sought to assassinate Fidel Castro using mafia hitmen. On his watch the Berlin Wall was built, the ugliest symbol of the Cold War division of the world. And on his watch the world came closer than at any other time to nuclear Armageddon.
During the 1962 Cuban Missile Crisis, Kennedy himself put the odds of disaster — meaning a thermonuclear war that could have claimed the lives of 100m Americans, more than 100m Russians and comparable millions of Europeans — at “between one out of three and even”.
How was catastrophe averted? By using a back channel to the Kremlin to cut a secret deal. Kennedy did this twice: in 1961 over Berlin and again in 1962 over Cuba. It was Bobby who took the crucial meetings with the Russians, unbeknown to key members of the administration, including the vice-president.
Thus far Trump has done nothing to match the skulduggery of his fondly remembered presidential predecessor
The reason the Russians agreed to remove their missiles from Cuba was that the Kennedy brothers secretly pledged to remove US missiles from Turkey. The details of the deal did not become public until the 1980s.
Finally, it was John F Kennedy who, according to the US ambassador in Saigon, authorised the coup that toppled and killed the South Vietnamese leader Ngo Dinh Diem in November 1963 — a decision that irrevocably committed Washington to the ultimately disastrous war against North Vietnam.
Kennedy occupies a unique position in the American collective memory. In a Gallup poll conducted in November 2013, 74% of Americans rated him an outstanding or above-average president, compared with 61% for Ronald Reagan and 49% for Dwight Eisenhower. His reputation is not wholly a result of his assassination on November 22, 1963, greatly though that event continues to fascinate the public. He is still remembered with affection for his good looks as much as for the idealistic rhetoric of his speeches.
Yet here is one contemporary verdict on the Kennedy administration, written before the president’s death. It had “demoralised the bureaucracy and much of the military”. It had engaged in “government by improvisation and manipulation”. It had relied on “public relations gimmicks”.
It had “no respect for personal dignity” and treated people “as tools”. It had “brutalised our allies within Nato”. It was undermining the US reputation for reliability — “the most important asset any nation has”. The State Department was “a shambles, demoralised by the weakness of the secretary of state and the interference of the White House”. Its foreign policy was “essentially a house of cards”. Thus the young Henry Kissinger.
The resemblances between the two presidents are more than superficial. In particular, both were too much inclined to see politics as a family affair. So far, however, Trump has done nothing to match the skulduggery and recklessness of his fondly remembered predecessor. Perhaps Trump’s Cuban Missile Crisis is on its way in North Korea.We shall see.
What the Trump presidency has revealed most clearly is not the way the presidency has changed as an institution, but the way the American press has changed.
Or maybe not. Perhaps, if JFK had been a Republican, he would have been treated with the same ferocious animosity as DJT is treated today for much less heinous acts.
Niall Ferguson is a senior fellow of the Hoover Institution, Stanford
Whether this thread is "pointless " or not, i find it interesting to look at the similarities between JFK and Mr T and to consider the similarities/differences between them. JFK was certainly more charismatic than Trump, although he too held women in little or no regard, seeing them only as conquests. But why would you post several posts on the subject, enter into a discussion, and then declare it a waste of time? Like Jalima 
I thought she said the piece was pointless, not the thread.
The comparisons are interesting, the utter disgust/contempt for women is palpable from both men. To what end? Why do we care if there is another marginal US president?
Imperfect, no, I don't think we are missing the point. Ferguson comments on how the assassination of JFK is part of why he is regarded in the light he is regarded given his presidential (and private) behaviour.
I've thought about this before. Come to the conclusion that (as usual when thinking about the USA) we're trying to judge what's going on there as if americans are like british people, just because we speak the same language.
They're not, their early history and recent history is different. So their attitudes to their leaders is different.
IMO main influences in America have been the strong Christian ethic of the founders, then the Go West tough guy, straight speaking, gun owning influence, (Trump), and the influence of their music and film industry, which glamourised Kennedy.
Anyway, no doubt many will disagree.
Yes, I think that's a documented phenomenon in US politics. Reagan had a huge boost after his attempted assassination.
I have enjoyed reading through the arguments on this thread - well, enjoy may not be the right word, but it has been illuminating. Baggs, I didn't question whether we were missing THE point, just A point ...
The similarity with JFK re lack of personal morals is sadly apparent and his unpredictability seems to becomes more and more of a challenge to even the most loyal of his supporters. He doesn't seem able to take on the expectations of office - rather, he wants to be the CEO and worse, he is a loose canon. I really do wonder how long this will be tolerated.
Like to do a similar comparison between Douglas-Home and May, Baggs?
Not within my capabilities, dj. I don't know much about either of them and especially not D-H. Ferguson probably could though. Or you, perhaps?
Gotcha, imp. Scratch out 'the' in my post and insert 'a'. I only meant that that point was not missed by me. I could have been clearer about that.
I think you've just spoilt someone's fun Baggs
It's equally pointless, Baggs.
So why stay on the thread? 
I suppose one difference was that, in Kennedy's era, we had the Cold War whereas now, Berlin Wall long gone, USSR dismantled, we may have an uneasy but apparently rather more open relationship with Russia.
Are people who crave power generally more immoral or does power give more opportunity for immoral behaviour?
I think I said on another thread that there is a fine line between charm (or charisma) and sleaze.
I think that Kennedy was probably a lot more astute and cleverer than Trump.
Pragmatism will always win the day and far more goes on behind closed doors than we will ever know.
And what about Macmillan and May? Who was the more astute there?
It's pointless to compare the two.
The difference is, of course, that Ferguson was paid for his polemic.
petra,
. Some people love to snipe, however pointless.
I think it's an interesting and thought-provoking comparison actually. The others that have been suggested might be too. I seem to remember history exam questions along the lines of compare and contrast the premierships of X and Y.
FWIW so do I ...will be interesting to see if Trump's presidency has the same outcome.
We can but hope. ....
I don't see the point of this. Kennedy wasn't great and Trump is absolutely awful.
There really is no comparison between them other than the position of President. Their times were very different. JFK rejected overtures from Castro before the missile crisis and that was a huge mistake, he also got involved in Vietnam. Both because the US was anti communist and would support other regimes no matter how bad. Kennedy was assassinated and to this day we really don't know why.
Trump is becoming more pragmatic but still too right wing for most of us. He probably won't be assassinated, whether he gets a second term remains to be seen. Hilary did win the popular vote but the quirks of the Electoral College let Trump in.
This thread may be pointless and our posts are only opinion which in the grand scheme of things are only spleen venting.
The main similarity between JFK and Trump would be their self belief. To want to be a CEO or a President you'd need a huge ego, or a some might say, a personality that fits more easily onto some kind of personality disorder spectrum than most of us would.
The world was a very different place when JFK was President. Ww2 was recent history, there was the Cold War and the US was finding reds under beds. JFK symbolised hope, he was charismatic. He liked women and like his own father, was unfaithful in his marriage. Trump doesn't seem to like women, his so called locker talk is disgusting. He is unstable and unpredictable. The comparisons seem to me to trivialise the significant concerns about Trump as Potus.
I don't think it's pointless to be able to read other gransnetters' often interesting and perceptive views. There have been some good posts.
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