Fight "Brexit" if you want to

Well, shock horror I'm past caring.
We had a referendum, we voted to leave the EU.
I can't change or influence what is happening at the moment so why worry.
I've just heard that our village school has just had £80000 slashed from its budget, that seems more important at the moment and I don't think we can blame Brexit for that.

Well as a country we ARE presenting a divided and very disloyal image to the EU aren't we, ...

Smileless I rather think the EU thought we were, as a country, being disloyal to our them long before now. Perhaps when the referendum was first called.

I think it is now pretty much decided we are opting out of single market and customs union as EU say we can't have control of borders and opt in these two. We have got over 18 months left before clock runs out. Businesses should be using this time to try to adapt to other markets. This way less of cliff edge. It is no use doing nothing for 2 years and then complaining of cliff edge. We have got safety net of EFTA
Norway, Liechtenstein and Iceland revealed they would welcome the UK into their organisation, which enjoys single market access, in the event of divorce proceedings with Brussels breaking down. However it would only be temporary measure as all members of EFTA have to abide by EU dictating freedom of movement. I honestly believe that Junker is trying to punish UK and has no intention of striking a fair trade deal. He just wants to extract as high a brexit divorce settlement as he can then will hold up and frustrate a deal for future. That is why no deal with EU if they do this would be better than a bad deal where we pay astronomical divorce settlement, continue to pay a lot every year after for trade deal even though EU would benefit also and they expect European court to have final say over Europeans living in UK. To my knowledge in every other country a person lives to the law of the land they inhabit but EU is demanding jurisdiction of people living in UK after Brexit. And Junker is demanding better rights for EU citizens living in UK than for UK citizens. If UK person marries a person from another county they have to prove income of more than certain amount in order to prove they can support spouse yet Junker is demanding this not apply to EU citizens living in UK. These are some of reasons talks will break down as he is very intransigent. Dr Fox is trying to sort out free trade deal with US and other commonwealth countries. We will have a few lean years but money not sent to EU will have to tied us over until enough trade deals sorted out. In long run we can be very prosperous. Junker does not want UK to prosper outside of EU in case other 3 net contributors decide to opt out. We must of course pay our contribution until we leave but budgets in EU are done on 2 year cycle so we should not be included after the 2 year period as they had received article 50. Mamie I am very happy to discuss implementation process.

There is a growing grumbling among the wider populace as more comes to light about the effect of Brexit.

Cindersdad it may change and you and anyone else who think it is the worst thing we could be doing for our country are perfectly entitled to fight for what you believe.

It is interesting that the cabinet seem to have accepted that we would need a transitional period. It seems they have finally had to listen to the businesses.

I just don't know but am inclined to agree with varian and others that we would be weakened and humiliated - and probably worse off financially.

YesWhite it is the transcript I read. I found it very very interesting.

Congratulations smileless. Although many on this thread, including myself, don't agree with you, you've made your point and put forward your views without resorting to personal jibes or ranting. Respect!

Thank you mcem.

I don't agree GG that no longer wishing to be a member of an organisation is disloyal. As a member of any organisation you pay your dues and adhere to the rules and regulations of that organisation. When you feel that you're not getting enough in terms of your financial outlay and disagree with rules and regulations imposed on you, you leave.

Perhaps if the EU regard Brexit as being disloyal and a personal slight , it could explain some of the pettiness we are seeing for eg. a few months ago Junker at the beginning of a speech said he would be speaking in French as English is no longer important.

newnanny's post highlights the unrealistic demands of the EU and for me confirms that I was right when I voted to leave.

When I posted "well as a country we ARE presenting a divided and very disloyal image to the EU" I was referring to the divisions and disloyalty here in the UK.

I obviously misunderstood as you said "we ARE presenting a divided and very disloyal image to the EU aren't we" but you say now that you don't feel we were being disloyal to the EU - confusing.

The question on most peoples minds usually permeates around the question of staying in the The Single Market and Customs Union or not.

Whether a member state is in the EU /EFTA or EEA you have to agree to abide by the 4 Pillars/4 Freedoms of the European Union Treaty's which dictate you abide by the Free Movement of Goods / People / Services/ Capital across borders.

EU spokespersons from Merkel/Tusk/Junker/Verhofstadt ALL have said the UK CANNOT Chery Pick it must agree to abide by EU Treatry's!

Switzerland has a bilateral relationship with the EU but Switzerland had voted 'for' quotas on immigration/Workers in 2014 . The EU said 'NO' so Switzerland climbed down to preserve it's ties with the Single Market.

It is disingenuous to say that the UK can remain in the Single Market , whether it be said by by Remain or Leave side as things stand . It will take the EU to put commerce before political dogma as enshrined in EU Treaty's and that has not happened for any country.

The reason being the European Union is well on it's way to fulfilling the hopes of one day becoming the United States Of Europe / Federal European States / Federal Europe , call it what they will. That mantra has not sat well with countries who prefer to be a Sovereign Nation such as The UK.

Poland is possibly going to be stripped of ' ALL VOTING RIGHTS ' in the the EU Parliament by the use of 'Article 7'. Why? Poland wants to make Judicial Reforms , the EU says 'NO'. The rights and wrongs are a separate debate but the point is will Poland buckle like Switzerland and the power of the European Union over the Affiliated / Member State carries on Ad infinitum . I think Poland probably will back down and that brings us back to the Federal United States of Europe desire by the EU Elite but not necessarily the EU people and one of many reason why many voted to leave the EU in our own Referendum.

Isn't it because the judges are going to lose their independence that is the issue? Isn't that one of the rights assigned to the people?

I would not like to lose that right. Look at the recent case in this country people v government. If the judges had not the independence the result would have been very different.
Poland has a choice, they know the rules.

Yes, I think Poland will cave in too, it is almost impossible for any country to try and make changes ( Cameron failed spectacularly so what hope has Poland!)
The EU ( with Germany leading the way) just bludgens it's way forward ignoring any concerns.That will eventually be the death of them IMHO.

I would think that Poland will agree to whatever the EU wants as the status quo would be preferable to living with the fear of Russian domination.
Ukraine thought it would be preferable to look westwards and join the EU and look what is still happening there to its people.
Several prominent EU countries blocked their possible accession:
Germany, France, Austria, Belgium and the Netherlands all rejected the idea of Ukraine’s potential EU membership during the five-year negotiation period in 2008-2012, Vimont told Volkskrant.

Would you give a link to the article you posted at 10.45 please, POGS?

(Because, I'm sorry if I misjudge your writing ability, but I don't believe for one moment that you actually wrote it)

Are you all ignoring what ww wrote?

Isn't it because the judges are going to lose their independence that is the issue? Isn't that one of the rights assigned to the people?

Polish government wants to take control of judge's appointments. I, too, would be protesting should that happen in the UK, though recent experience has shown that a large swathe of our population doesn't understand the concept of an independent judiciary, so can't comprehend what the nasty jackbooted EU is up to when they're saying 'you can't do that'.

The EU are not being unreasonable in my opinion. This is from the FT

www.ft.com/content/8ddc360a-6e0d-11e7-b9c7-15af748b60d0

"The bill — which would force all Supreme Court judges to step down, except for those kept on by Poland’s president — has sparked protests across the country, with tens of thousands of Poles taking to the streets on Thursday to rally against the draft law and other reforms that will give politicians wide-ranging control over the judiciary"

Just an opinion.

www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jun/18/brexiters-vote-poverty-even-worse-than-austerity?CMP=share_btn_link

Sent from my iPad

Mamie, I agree with your contention that a democracy that cannot change its mind is not a democracy.
Hopefully we will get our chance to find out how many brexiteers have changed their minds in the not too distant future, before it's too late to rewind what we have unwound.

ukandeu.ac.uk/needed-a-politician-who-dares-to-question-whether-brexit-still-makes-sense/

Any bets on who it will be?

Scary article by Keegan, Welshwife.
I agree with him that nobody thought that the DUP would save May. However, they haven't yet. This parliament so far has been so much obfuscation that nobody knows what is going on.

I don't think we will need to fight Brexit.

www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2017/07/21/the-brexiters-are-coming-apart-at-the-seams

Poland will, I would have thought, acquiesce (perhaps under protest though) which is the right thing to do.
As well as being pragmatic.

So they may do the right thing but not necessarily for the right reasons.

www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-07-20/u-k-exporters-are-sleepwalking-into-brexit-lloyds-poll-finds

Exporters don't seem to want to leave. Possibly because, like everyone else, they feel they are in the dark about what is happening.

Michael Gove asked me to a meeting to share my expertise. I declined. Instead, I’ve given him a piece of my mind.