Fight "Brexit" if you want to

Would you give a link to the article you posted at 10.45 please, POGS?

(Because, I'm sorry if I misjudge your writing ability, but I don't believe for one moment that you actually wrote it)

I would think that Poland will agree to whatever the EU wants as the status quo would be preferable to living with the fear of Russian domination.
Ukraine thought it would be preferable to look westwards and join the EU and look what is still happening there to its people.
Several prominent EU countries blocked their possible accession:
Germany, France, Austria, Belgium and the Netherlands all rejected the idea of Ukraine’s potential EU membership during the five-year negotiation period in 2008-2012, Vimont told Volkskrant.

Yes, I think Poland will cave in too, it is almost impossible for any country to try and make changes ( Cameron failed spectacularly so what hope has Poland!)
The EU ( with Germany leading the way) just bludgens it's way forward ignoring any concerns.That will eventually be the death of them IMHO.

Isn't it because the judges are going to lose their independence that is the issue? Isn't that one of the rights assigned to the people?

I would not like to lose that right. Look at the recent case in this country people v government. If the judges had not the independence the result would have been very different.
Poland has a choice, they know the rules.

The question on most peoples minds usually permeates around the question of staying in the The Single Market and Customs Union or not.

Whether a member state is in the EU /EFTA or EEA you have to agree to abide by the 4 Pillars/4 Freedoms of the European Union Treaty's which dictate you abide by the Free Movement of Goods / People / Services/ Capital across borders.

EU spokespersons from Merkel/Tusk/Junker/Verhofstadt ALL have said the UK CANNOT Chery Pick it must agree to abide by EU Treatry's!

Switzerland has a bilateral relationship with the EU but Switzerland had voted 'for' quotas on immigration/Workers in 2014 . The EU said 'NO' so Switzerland climbed down to preserve it's ties with the Single Market.

It is disingenuous to say that the UK can remain in the Single Market , whether it be said by by Remain or Leave side as things stand . It will take the EU to put commerce before political dogma as enshrined in EU Treaty's and that has not happened for any country.

The reason being the European Union is well on it's way to fulfilling the hopes of one day becoming the United States Of Europe / Federal European States / Federal Europe , call it what they will. That mantra has not sat well with countries who prefer to be a Sovereign Nation such as The UK.

Poland is possibly going to be stripped of ' ALL VOTING RIGHTS ' in the the EU Parliament by the use of 'Article 7'. Why? Poland wants to make Judicial Reforms , the EU says 'NO'. The rights and wrongs are a separate debate but the point is will Poland buckle like Switzerland and the power of the European Union over the Affiliated / Member State carries on Ad infinitum . I think Poland probably will back down and that brings us back to the Federal United States of Europe desire by the EU Elite but not necessarily the EU people and one of many reason why many voted to leave the EU in our own Referendum.

I obviously misunderstood as you said "we ARE presenting a divided and very disloyal image to the EU aren't we" but you say now that you don't feel we were being disloyal to the EU - confusing.

I don't agree GG that no longer wishing to be a member of an organisation is disloyal. As a member of any organisation you pay your dues and adhere to the rules and regulations of that organisation. When you feel that you're not getting enough in terms of your financial outlay and disagree with rules and regulations imposed on you, you leave.

Perhaps if the EU regard Brexit as being disloyal and a personal slight , it could explain some of the pettiness we are seeing for eg. a few months ago Junker at the beginning of a speech said he would be speaking in French as English is no longer important.

newnanny's post highlights the unrealistic demands of the EU and for me confirms that I was right when I voted to leave.

When I posted "well as a country we ARE presenting a divided and very disloyal image to the EU" I was referring to the divisions and disloyalty here in the UK.

Thank you mcem.

Congratulations smileless. Although many on this thread, including myself, don't agree with you, you've made your point and put forward your views without resorting to personal jibes or ranting. Respect!

YesWhite it is the transcript I read. I found it very very interesting.

I just don't know but am inclined to agree with varian and others that we would be weakened and humiliated - and probably worse off financially.

There is a growing grumbling among the wider populace as more comes to light about the effect of Brexit.

Cindersdad it may change and you and anyone else who think it is the worst thing we could be doing for our country are perfectly entitled to fight for what you believe.

It is interesting that the cabinet seem to have accepted that we would need a transitional period. It seems they have finally had to listen to the businesses.

I think it is now pretty much decided we are opting out of single market and customs union as EU say we can't have control of borders and opt in these two. We have got over 18 months left before clock runs out. Businesses should be using this time to try to adapt to other markets. This way less of cliff edge. It is no use doing nothing for 2 years and then complaining of cliff edge. We have got safety net of EFTA
Norway, Liechtenstein and Iceland revealed they would welcome the UK into their organisation, which enjoys single market access, in the event of divorce proceedings with Brussels breaking down. However it would only be temporary measure as all members of EFTA have to abide by EU dictating freedom of movement. I honestly believe that Junker is trying to punish UK and has no intention of striking a fair trade deal. He just wants to extract as high a brexit divorce settlement as he can then will hold up and frustrate a deal for future. That is why no deal with EU if they do this would be better than a bad deal where we pay astronomical divorce settlement, continue to pay a lot every year after for trade deal even though EU would benefit also and they expect European court to have final say over Europeans living in UK. To my knowledge in every other country a person lives to the law of the land they inhabit but EU is demanding jurisdiction of people living in UK after Brexit. And Junker is demanding better rights for EU citizens living in UK than for UK citizens. If UK person marries a person from another county they have to prove income of more than certain amount in order to prove they can support spouse yet Junker is demanding this not apply to EU citizens living in UK. These are some of reasons talks will break down as he is very intransigent. Dr Fox is trying to sort out free trade deal with US and other commonwealth countries. We will have a few lean years but money not sent to EU will have to tied us over until enough trade deals sorted out. In long run we can be very prosperous. Junker does not want UK to prosper outside of EU in case other 3 net contributors decide to opt out. We must of course pay our contribution until we leave but budgets in EU are done on 2 year cycle so we should not be included after the 2 year period as they had received article 50. Mamie I am very happy to discuss implementation process.

Well as a country we ARE presenting a divided and very disloyal image to the EU aren't we, ...

Smileless I rather think the EU thought we were, as a country, being disloyal to our them long before now. Perhaps when the referendum was first called.

Well, shock horror I'm past caring.
We had a referendum, we voted to leave the EU.
I can't change or influence what is happening at the moment so why worry.
I've just heard that our village school has just had £80000 slashed from its budget, that seems more important at the moment and I don't think we can blame Brexit for that.

And my post of 17:33 was a continuation of my earlier post. I had said several times that the vote is over and what happens next is where the discussion needs to be. I find it bizarre that no "leavers" seem to want to discuss the implementation process.
I agree "whitewave", transition certainly seems to be in the discussion now.

Yes mamie you were, but my post at 18.23 was in response to your post at 17.33.

mamie don't forget that things have softened considerably recently. So I think it is looking more positive at the moment than since the referendum. I think the truth of the matter is that the Brexit ministers are finally beginning to understand the incredible difficulties and potential disastrous hit to our economy.

If you read my post of 16:53 SmilelessI think you will se that I was talking about the post-Brexit process of implementation.

You say you're not talking about the vote mamie then why did you refer too "A decision taken on wishful thinking is nothing short of reckless"? My previous post was a response to yours.

IMO varian "at some point, we as a nation, should recognise that the 2016 referendum" was in favour of leaving the EU and should now be concentrating of forging the best possible outcome for the country.

We all know that the Remain Campaign was totally incompetent preferring what is termed "project fear" (trying to predict the dire consequenses of a leave vote) instead of advocating the many advantages that the UK enjoys by being in the EU. More and more of these predictions are now seeming to come true, but that does not excuse an incompetent campaign.

The Leave Campaign, on the other hand was inherently dishonest from the start. It was a deliberate manipulation of democracy by powerful people who peddled out-and-out lies (the lie on the bus was the least of it).

The BBC, not satisfied with 20 years of relentlessly promoting Nigel Farage and his brexit nonsense, felt obliged during the referendum campaign to give equal weight to intelligent, informed opinion from experts on the Remain side and propaganda and lies on the Leave side.

A lot of decent, well-meaning people (inlcuding some GNetters) were fooled into voting to harm the futures of their children and grandchildren by voting for the lies.

It would have been so much better if the Remain campaign had talked more about the many benefits we have all enjoyed by being in the EU. Perhaps all is not lost.

www.politico.eu/article/9-ways-britain-could-stay-european-union-brexit/

At some point we, as a nation, should recognise, that the 2016 referendum was fraudulent, 37% of the electorate made a mistake, but that should not be allowed to blight the future of our once great country for ever.

I am not talking about the vote Smileless. The vote is over. I am talking about what happens next. Cliff edge or managed, interim process such as EEA / EFTA?

Well I didn't cast my vote on wishful thinking Mamie. As newnanny has rightly pointed out, flyers were sent to every household by the government at the tax payers expense; just a small part of an excellent post.

It's up to each individual voter to equip themselves with as much information as possible before casting their vote on such an important issue, and to even allude to those who voted to leave as being uninformed and simply wishful thinking is insulting and quite frankly a very poor argument.

IMO the biggest lie came from Cameron who, when calling the referendum said he would continue PM regardless of the outcome. Within a few hours he'd spat his dummy out and resigned. If those who wanted to remain want to have a go at anyone it should be Cameron and not those who used their democratic right to vote as they saw fit.

Mamie I totally agree on evidenced based decision making.

No Primrose65, you make a decision when you have sufficient hard evidence one way or the other. A decision based on wishful thinking is nothing short of feckless.