Fight "Brexit" if you want to

Yes, it's ironic that the dodgy numbers quoted by the leave campaign - all the £350 million a week rubbish - is now the correct amount if we want to stay.

I dread having a second referendum. It would be a nasty fight and would make the country more polarised than it is now.

Not a Brexiteer either, I voted to remain. But I am a pragmatist.

For once I agree to some extent with the brexiters on this. Clearly we can stay if we chose to, and this has been confirmed by French and German leaders, but it would not be painless. According to Guy Verhofstadt, we would lose our rebate, one of the many perks which the UK enjoys at present. This was one of the few good things achieved by Margaret Thatcher, but it may be the price we have to pay for our foolhardiness.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/14/perks-end-uk-eu-guy-verhofstadt

Well, we can't change the past. We asked for quite insignificant reforms, we failed to get them, and then we decide to overturn the vote to leave so that we stay in on unchanged terms. Hardly puts us in a position of strength.

There is no way on gods earth that the eu would say: oh that's ok, let's forget about it.
In their eyes we have to be taught a lesson, otherwise, who's next: Italy, Spain, Portugal, Greece?

I think there was misinformation on both sides. 'Project Fear' did nothing for the remain argument.

Do you think that if we had another referendum and voted to remain it would be the equivalent of turning back the clock? Or would we be in a weaker or stronger negotiating position going forward?

mcem - my post clashed with yours - but I 100% agree with your assessment.

cinders good post and logical argument

My argument is simple. The result was close and flawed due to misinformation and much misunderstanding. The effect of Brexit on future generations is too important to simply allow it to go unchallenged. Before the referendum a LEAVE supporter thinking at the time that REMAIN would win raised a petition urging that at least a 60% majority should be required to make the result binding. In the event over 4 million unhappy REMAIN and yes some non voters signed that petition to no effect after the event.

There is a lot about our democracy that I and many others do not like and that is part of the reason for voter apathy. We are one of the few countries in the world that sticks to FPTP instead of a PR variant. FPTP suits the conservatives and to a lesser extend labour but it has polarised politics as has the Referendum and that is not good for democracy. The totally inability of the establishment to countenance past mistakes is equally bad for democracy.

The people should have a better informed say when the full facts are better known and understood. The Brexiteers are frightened of that and will do their utmost to stifle protest before the cliff edge.

Given that the referendum was advisory and not mandatory it would be possible to stop Brexit.
Much as I'd regret that the time and money spent on negotiations would be wasted, I'd welcome the time when someone says that the facts are now known and we need a 2nd referendum to confirm or cancel Brexit.
Seems logical to me but diehard leavers will object because it's becoming clearer that the decision would be reversed.
Not antidemocratic - simply voting when we're presented with facts instead of the lies that were trotted out before.

How do you know Cindersdad? How many of the 52% have you talked too to enable you to presume that "relatively few (voted) that way for rational reasons"?

Why should the democratic process be un democratically overturned because of the apathetic attitude of the young who didn't bother to vote?

I considered the benefits and the drawbacks of EU membership, it was close but in the end IMO the benefits were outweighed by the drawbacks. I wonder why you appear to have so much confidence in the wisdom of younger voters who only last year according to you were either too complacent to vote, of if they did vote to leave, only did so to kick the Tories.

Hear hear Smileless
Some only like democracy when it goes the way they like.

"Smileless2012" you have made some valid points. However we need to ask ourselves why 52% (of 75%) over LEAVE and why so many of the young did not vote in the referendum. Article 50 can be stopped at any time in parliament rebels, the EU would be pleased if we did that.

Of the 52% relatively few that way for rational reasons. Certainly more than enough "silly" reason to effectively reverse the result.

The young did not vote because they thought remain would win, that was complacant.
A lot voted leave because they wanted to kick the Tories.
Some because they harked back to the days of Empire.
Yes many did think about it seeing the drawbacks of the EU without balancing its benefits.

Well as a country we ARE presenting a divided and very disloyal image to the EU aren't we, and the cliff edge you refer too isn't Brexit per se, it's the inability of the country to come together in terms of political parties and the general population to get the best deal possible for the benefit of all.

Has Vince Cable or anyone else for that matter asked the EU if we can change our minds and remain? During an interview a couple of months ago with a female representative of the EU this question was asked and her response was to say 'no, the UK has voted for Brexit so Brexit will happen'.

If you were a member of the EU, would you want a country that voted to leave and then started tearing itself apart to have another referendum so it could change it's mind? If the vote had gone the other way and remainers were seeking to overturn a democratically made decision you'd be up in arms and rightly so.

Yes, you can fight Brexit if want too or you can accept that along with all of the benefits that living in this democracy offers, sometimes a decision will be made by the majority that you don't like and you can stop whinging and make the best of it.

Thanks cinder
I am all for avoiding disaster.