Surprising proposed changes to gender identification legislation

For those of you who insist on evidence:

These are the men who've committed sex crimes in Target (US chain store) since they introduced their self identification policy
mail.google.com/mail/u/0/?ui=2&ik=9cfa3ed9fa&view=att&th=15d7fb213e9c4046&attid=0.1&disp=safe&zw

In Missouri you apply to the courts to change your sex (only slightly more onerous than the UK government's proposal of filling in a form on the Internet) resulting in Danielle Muscato, an intact male, now legally being a woman. He was recently living in a homeless women's shelter, taking a space intended for a vulnerable woman
mail.google.com/mail/u/0/?ui=2&ik=9cfa3ed9fa&view=att&th=15d7fb0f67b8cc1e&attid=0.1&disp=safe&zw

More from Danielle
mail.google.com/mail/u/0/?ui=2&ik=9cfa3ed9fa&view=att&th=15d7fb5721da6781&attid=0.1&disp=safe&zw

States with self identification forcing women to have mixed sex dorms
mail.google.com/mail/u/0/?ui=2&ik=9cfa3ed9fa&view=att&th=15d7fb7d875ad352&attid=0.1&disp=safe&zw

mail.google.com/mail/u/0/?ui=2&ik=9cfa3ed9fa&view=att&th=15d7fb7d875ad352&attid=0.3&disp=safe&zw

Washington state has self-identification
mail.google.com/mail/u/0/?ui=2&ik=9cfa3ed9fa&view=att&th=15d7fb91bbd1e580&attid=0.1&disp=safe&zw

Canada has had self identification for a while
mail.google.com/mail/u/0/?ui=2&ik=9cfa3ed9fa&view=att&th=15d7fba121a18da5&attid=0.1&disp=safe&zw

The following link shows Stefonknee (get it?!) who identifies not only as female, but as a 6 year old girl. Interestingly he is legally female in Canada but you can't self identify your age. Bigots. He has been "adopted" by a couple and enjoys play dates with their grandchildren (are they mental?) and anal sex with his adopted father. Lovely. He's a prominent activist and was name checked by the Canadian govt when they were thanking people who helped them bring the self identification laws in.
mail.google.com/mail/u/0/?ui=2&ik=9cfa3ed9fa&view=att&th=15d7fbdc48b192ed&attid=0.1&disp=safe&zw

Christopher/Jessica Hanbrook was able to access two different women's shelters in Canada under their self ID laws. He assaulted 3 women and a 15 year old girl. Trans activists have said he wasn't really trans. It doesn't matter, he got in because there's no level of gatekeeping of what a woman is and the shelters were too afraid of being prosecuted for a hate crime to turn him away.
mail.google.com/mail/u/0/?ui=2&ik=9cfa3ed9fa&view=att&th=15d7fbff2fb383e3&attid=0.1&disp=safe&zw

Colleen Francis: Intact male who was naked in the shower area of the swimming pool coincidentally at the same time as the girls swim team met. Those horrible bigots didn't want to undressed in front of a naked strange man and protested. They were told he had every right to use it and they crowded into the disabled space to get away from him.
mail.google.com/mail/u/0/?ui=2&ik=9cfa3ed9fa&view=att&th=15d7fc1f2a3f9292&attid=0.1&disp=safe&zw

I rest my case.

I think what your evidence shows YankeeGran is that some countries where this has already been introduced haven't taken the time or the care to implement legislation sensibly.

The evidence you've produced needs to be scrutinised carefully so that if this does indeed become law, we don't make the same mistakes. I know there's a saying that one bad apple can spoil a barrow but that doesn't mean that the entire crop will be rotten.

YankeeGran I can't access the links to a google mail account, so there's no way to read it. But a random search on one of the names shows he was an established sex offender, who committed his first crime in 2002, 10 years before the one you mention.

I just don't see it the way you do. But that's fine.

Thanks for starting this thread Yankee, I was in disbelief when I heard the proposals. How can anyone not see the dangers inherent in allowing any man to access women's spaces? If it doesn't matter, why bother having segregated spaces at all?

Smileless, I wou,d be really interested to hear how you think the UK can introduce self identification without falling into the same pitfalls? Because if anyone can say "I feel like a woman" and that's all there is to it, I don't see how that can be reconciled with safety and privacy for women?

LeslieKnope - at last, an ally!
On reflection, I think my post would have had more contributors if I had given it a sexier title - something like 'You, too, can shower with strange men'!

I saw Yankeegran's point immediately.
It is about men who have no gender issues, but who could choose to pretend they do in order to prey on women and girls.
As the established sex offender, mentioned by Primrose65 actually did.
I don't know how anyone fails to see that point.

Brendan O'Neill voices some concerns that worry me.

www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/the-orwellian-nightmare-of-transgender-politics#.WXkYrLHTWhD

Think of the furore when that white women ( can't remember name) identified as black and got jobs, scholarships etc which were intended for minorities. Is this much different? Should we be free to choose an identity which is in conflict with our biological reality? Or should those who see themselves as a different race, gender, age whatever be treated for psychological issues? Is gender now just something like hair colour that we can change as and when the fancy takes us? I am worried about young people who now may feel they could be more interesting/ fashionable to be a different persona and this could unleash a whole number of problems for them.

Suzied, that's a really interesting point, I remember that woman being hounded at the same time caitlin Jenner was getting "woman of the year" and bravery awards and I scratched my head at the time.

If I'm honest, I don't really know how you can "feel female" without being one. Being a woman is a biological experience (and a deeply visceral, primitive one at times!). If you don't have the biology, isn't it just a fantasy or a costume of what a woman is?

I'm confused as to how they plan to alter birth certificates - they state your Sex not Gender.

A man transitioning to a trans-woman remains biologically male; your sex can't be changed.

Yankee I was unable to open the links so can't comment on them.

You seem to cite showers and changing areas as being your main concern. Surely these are areas which can be easily sorted out by simply having a transgender changing room/shower room.

My father in law is involved with the building of a new church and they will have three separate gender toilets, one specifically for transgender. This building is being built now - not proposed in the future.

I'm sure you realise that in the continent there toilets are often mixed sex and have always been that way. We travel extensively in our motorhome on the continent and sometimes use the campsite shower blocks - very often they are mixed. Whole families using the facilities together. I have never felt threatened or embarrassed and no-one I see in them looks cowed or frightened as you seem to suggest would be the case.

The scenario you portray of vulnerable girl (I don't know why you think females are always 'vulnerable') literally showering next to testosterone fuelled male is ridiculous. I don't know where you go but I have never ever seen facilities where everyone showers together - there are always cubicles.

Should read ' on the continent their toilets' bloody predictive text!

Trans-women who've fully-transitioned can shower and change wherever they like as far as I'm concerned.

What is unacceptable to me is for someone to 'self identify' as female and then have legal access to women's facilities, services, and activities such as competitive sport.

I've worked with a nurse who had transitioned some time back and would have no problem with her nursing me and providing intimate care - I would not allow a man who suddenly self-identified to provide that care.

Oriel I have seen shared (single sex) showers, without cubicles, in a number of sports facilities.

Interesting point regarding the competitive sport aspect. I would think that testing would be required for this?

FarNorth OK, I hadn't realised that such things still existed.

Surely though it would be entirely reasonable for venues such as sports facilities to have separate showering areas for those who identify as female but haven't had surgery?

"You seem to cite showers and changing areas as being your main concern. Surely these are areas which can be easily sorted out by simply having a transgender changing room/shower room."
Well that might work if the transgender individuals agreed to self-segregate. But that;s not going to happen, is it? They will wither not wish to draw attention to themselves, or they will be insulted at not being 'allowed' to use the facilities they believe they are entitled to.

"My father in law is involved with the building of a new church and they will have three separate gender toilets, one specifically for transgender. This building is being built now - not proposed in the future."
What country are you in? Because I'm pretty sure that this would fall foul of discrimination law in the UK - if not now, certainly if/when 'gender identity' becomes a protected characteristic (as this bill proposes).

"Interesting point regarding the competitive sport aspect. I would think that testing would be required for this?"
Again, if gender identity becomes a protected characteristic, the sporting authorities could be sued for discrimination. As it is, under International Olympic Committee allows transwomen to have testosterone levels three times higher than a born woman (testosterone is used in doping) and are not required to have surgery. www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/jan/25/ioc-rules-transgender-athletes-can-take-part-in-olympics-without-surgery

"Surely though it would be entirely reasonable for venues such as sports facilities to have separate showering areas for those who identify as female but haven't had surgery?"
Yes it would be reasonable. But again, if gender identity becomes a protected characteristic, the venues could be sued for discrimination.

LeslieKnope I agree with your comment about feeling female. What does that even mean? Do all women feel the same? No one has yet defined what 'feeling female' is, that I know of.

oriel your suggestions of a third space are sensible, but as others have said, that's not what's being proposed.

Let's be really clear - the government is about to implement legislation that any man at any time can say "I identify as a woman" and legally he will be. Don't want him in the showers at your swimming pool or on your hospital ward? Too bad. Question a man coming into the ladies loos? You could be committing a hate crime. Request a female healthcare professional and a strapping bloke comes in? If you refuse to be treated by him, your surgery could remove you as though you had refused care from a black nurse and were racist. Not to mention the impact on women's refuges and places like rape crisis centres.

These are real scenarios. I for one don't want them and will be writing to my MP to ask how he proposes to safeguard the 50% of his consistuents who are adversely impacted by this so that .03% of the population can feel included.

I'm in the UK Jinty, I guess the church want to make everyone feel included by providing a separate toilet should people wish to use it. I can't imagine it being made mandatory that a transgender person must use it.

Of course things are in the early stage as far as legislation goes but I think it will follow that everything concerning facilities will be ironed out.

Men are everywhere at the moment - by far and away we all co-exist together very well. There's good and bad in both sexes. Men who commit crimes against women will do so anyway and I don't think they will see this as an opportunity to infiltrate women only areas.

I also can't see why a women's refuge or rape crisis centre would be seen being at risk either. People in those centres have been attacked by a particular male (or female) not by every male in existence.

I don't understand why transgender people are being viewed so negatively by some people here.

Oriel I don't view transgender people negatively, but I do view the transactivists very negatively. I was completely blind to the whole shebang until recently, then a few things I read made me sit up and pay attention.

I don't know why you think everything will be ironed out. On the one side there is a lobbying group pushing their agenda, and on the other - well a few people keen to appear oh-so-progressive bending the knee to the lobbyists and the vast majority not really paying attention but wanting to be nice to people who are unhappy. Anybody who points out a conflict of interests is denounced as a bigot. It hardly lends itself to confidence in the outcome.

As for refuges - you really think that traumatised women who have been abused so badly they've had to seek refuge will not be stressed out sharing a room with a physically intact male? I'm guessing you've had no dealings with abused women.

Canada, which is one of the countries mentioned earlier in the thread, is a case in point. The woman in this news article was expected to share a room with a male globalnews.ca/news/3300518/concerns-over-transgender-client-at-okanagan-shelter/ and was asked to leave when she wouldn't. And yes, some men do see it as an opportunity to infiltrate, as you put it - www.lifesitenews.com/news/sexual-predator-jailed-after-claiming-to-be-transgender-in-order-to-assault and have been jailed for it.There's also Vancouver Rape Relief, a charity that supported rape victims, dragged through the court for 12 years by a transwoman because they wouldn't train her as a rape counsellor. The money they had to spend on that could have been better spent on rape victims. www.feministcurrent.com/2012/05/14/rape-relief-v-nixon-transphobia-and-the-value-of-women-only-space-an-interview-with-lee-lakeman/

If you want to read up a bit, a good place to start is an article written by a transwoman who writes under the pseudonym Helen Highwater. I found it thoughtful and offering an insight into the experience of being transgender. genderapostates.com/trans-women-are-women-is-a-lie/

I agree with Riverwalk - just stating that you are of a different gender should not trigger the ability to re-register in that gender. If you have fully transitioned, then it should be possible.

At least one of those things has happened already. A friend who had previously been sexually assaulted requested a female nurse conduct her smear test. A very tall, deep-voiced person with a beard and hairy arms informed my friend that they were the female nurse and would be doing the test.

My friend pretty much said 'Over my dead body,' and made a formal complaint, which was upheld by the health authority.

Men who commit crimes against women will do so anyway and I don't think they will see this as an opportunity to infiltrate women only areas.

You don't think so? Why wouldn't they? They take every other opportunity they can.

That article from Helen Highwater puts it very well, Jinty44.