Our country post Brexit

I don't know Welshwife. Personally (away from thinking about 'Englishness') I would like them to work really hard for their countries.

Could you use the knowledge of the worthwhile members of the Lords - without those who just go to collect the daily pay - to set up the UK parliament? Kill two birds with one stone by ending the Lords and gaining a UK parliament?

I'm not sure if it will work as I haven't thought about it enough. My point was that many people (large numbers of whom voted Brexit) had felt their Englishness had been absorbed and changed.

The other thing I feel I have learned from this other little forum I visit - where they attempt to drive out anyone who isn't pro Brexit - is that those who voted for Brexit have fallen into a kind of groupthink. This phenomenon happens when a group of people desire harmony and conformity within their group so much that they become irrational or dysfunctional in their decision-making.

May I hand you this mirror gracesgran?

How would Rees-Mogg cope with that system, Welshwife?
He works for 35-40 hours a month for his Somerset Capital Management group, earning over twice as much as for his other part time job as an MP.

You may be right Darnsdorf but I don't believe you are. You have never been on the forum I mention but there is no room for contradiction on there - because they are prepared to believe anything is possible as long as they leave the EU. I see this in the 'leavers' on here too except there is a reasonably equal number of people who are remain or majority remain who are prepared to discuss. I think your "May I hand you this mirror" shows the level of discussion from the 'leavers'. It is first attack the person then, if ever, present the facts for or against.

What I see on there is unfettered. They just drive away all who want to say anything positive about the EU and they do it quite viciously and personally. There is no room for discussion - groupthink and protecting that thinking is all they are about.

Darnsarf rofl

As I say Lemongrove - that sort of 'discussion'.

Of course you can't see the similarities gracesgran! . If only we could see ourselves as others see us!

The you might see the differences Darnsarf as well as any similarities but there are none so blind.

Away from Darnsarf and her diversionary tactics (always happens when there is nothing positive for leavers to say about leaving) .

The biggest news of the day re Brexit seems to be the madness of Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson PC MP. Are their people just allowing him enough rope to hang himself with or what?

Trouble is people will start believing him again - and if they believe that they will think that all the subsidies paid to various groups will also continue. I think he is just making things worse - probably trying to make the troops feel better about the decision before they jump off the edge.
I do wish there was REALLY something good and positive to look forward to. I feel so sorry for people with young families who now do not know what their future holds.

I know Welshwife. If you repeat the lie often enough even you begin to believe it. He is annoying some in the CP though.

Realism would be good at this point.

GGMK2: I was replying to your previous question about the role of the opposition.
They are there to challenge/oppose everything they disagree with that the government is doing/proposing.

Where was that Cardiff - just so I can see what I was saying and relate it to your answer.

Did anyone hear Simon Boyd, managing director of REIDSteel speaking on Any Questions today?
REIDsteel is one of the largest quality steel producers and construction companies in the world.
Surely you would agree that this man is no fool, you don't get to be that big without understanding how business, money, and the world works.
He is quiet happy with the negotiations and feels that we should walk away now.
He also said " walk away from a bad deal"
He is very happy to trade under WTO rules.

They use steel for construction - this can be the lower quality Chinese steel - it is not the high quality steel used by the car plants etc, that is steel produced in SWales Port Talbot - the only producer of this type of steel in the UK. Tata sold off their cheaper steel making plant to Liberty - if they are still making it it is being done in Newport. Liberty also reuse steel in their manufacture.
Reid would then be happy with buying cheap Chinese steel as cheap as they could get it.
The EU are trying to sort out the letting in of cheap Chinese steel into the EU as you will remember that is what caused the crisis a few years ago,- of course he would be happy to leave.
Most other manufacturers are warning against leaving.

GG MK2

" The other thing I feel I have learned from this other little forum I visit - where they attempt to drive out anyone who isn't pro Brexit - is that those who voted for Brexit have fallen into a kind of groupthink. This phenomenon happens when a group of people desire harmony and conformity within their group so much that they become irrational or dysfunctional in their decision-making."

"What I see on there is unfettered. They just drive away all who want to say anything positive about the EU and they do it quite viciously and personally. There is no room for discussion - groupthink and protecting that thinking is all they are about."

On ' another forum '. ?

I think you have summed up a view that a lot of posters on this forum/GN would agree happens but not so sure it is the domain of just one side of the Referendum result argument .

It will of course depend if you voted Remain or Leave and whether or not you accept the democracy of the Referendum Result or not.

Both sides will see your words from their own perspective won't they .

POGS - I was effectively driven out of "Buzz50" when I started a thread "Why Brexit". Jean Claude Junker did give me a sort of reason for Brexit though I don't believe that many of remaining 27 share his views. A couple of weeks ago I helped in an Awareness Event for Open Britain. Talking to members of the public few who voted Leave could actually justify why they voted that way and none had changed their views. On balance however, the majority I spoke to did favour Remain.

In a second referendum if we have one when the facts are known most of those who voted the first time would likely vote the same way though there would likely be a slight shift to Remain. A lot of those who did not vote the first time may vote to remain or even leave.

I just want the politicians to come clean on the effect of Brexit before it is too late.

POGS - All you are saying is 'I am right and democracy stopped on the day of the referendum'

I accept that that was the vote of a small majority and that, because of this, we must find out what leaving - and be more honest about staying in - would mean.

In 1975 over two-thirds of voters supported continued EC membership. 67.2 percent voted Yes and 32.8 percent voted No. We then continued to vote for the governments that made changes along the way. You talk as if these things were done to us but they were not. We democratically decided that this was what the majority wanted. What about that 'democracy'? You seem quite willing to overturn that.

We voted to come out. We did not vote on how it should be done or even if, when we actually know what it means to us, whether it would still be what we wanted. I cannot see why, when you are so in favour of the 'democracy' of referendums we should not have a vote when the actual facts are known - not one sides 'facts' or the others, but reality.

Your idea of democracy seems only to apply to what you want the answer to be.

The UK has the best deal now. We will never get a better deal so let's not throw it away.

www.facebook.com/veryBrexitproblems

It seems to me that May is still not clear what Brexit means.

Let's hope Florence brings some enlightenment.
What's the betting that there will be lots of "good trading relationships" and "close working partnerships" - but little actual light on the subject.

Two things today. The great prat Johnson has had his hand slapped by the UK Statistics Authority for saying yet again that Britain will claw back £350m a week after leaving the EU and then decided to argue with them. Such a child.

And May, well what do you say about her. She says she has to listen but I really don't think she has her listening ears on for anyone but the Brexit Tories. I actually don't think she is capable of listening and when ever she says such things all I can think of is the nurse talking about her pay slips.

... and these people are our government!

Talking to some of our Conservative friends yesterday after church re Boris. There were concerns that he is tearing his Party and our Country apart. Are his personal ambitions getting the better of him? The Foreign Office is usually well know for diplomacy, it must be difficult for so many diplomats to show the right level of respect for a Minister who has no appreciation of diplomacy. Boris should be forced to resign.

BJ's personal ambitions have always got the better of him - as a journalist, MP, Mayor, Foreign Secretary - he early is the model of a Conservative.

Time for a new whinge thread?