Our country post Brexit

When was UK the suck man of Europe then?

MaizieD: You answered your own question re population size. As the first industrial nation we had the advantage then but it did not take other nations long to catch up, many without all the mistakes we made to get that industrialisation started. Yes, WW2 was devastating financially as well as in so many other ways. What is less well known is that our economy was not in trouble before we were taken over by the EEC. We were not desperate to join the EEC; it was our politicians, mainly Edward Heath who was so determined to take us in.

Politicians are looking after their own ends. Many of them saw better job prospects in the EEC (and there were as we have seen) than serving their constituents here. That was no argument for entry, so they lied to us.

It is impossible to tell now what would have happened had we not joined; we do know what impact membership has had. There will always be differences of opinion whatever the outcome. Mine is based on the lies we have been told and our loss of definitive rights (being told what to do and overruled legally).

Good heavens, I'm so naive, I'd never thought that a government would go to such lengths to manipulate opinion!

Is it common practice for governments to feed draft letters approving their policies to businesses to sign in a round robin for publication in The Times?

What an embarrassment this government is...

I am beginning to wonder if they leaked this plan deliberately to sway the country to something less draconian - or is than my natural suspicion of the far-right who are now in control?

www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-09-06/may-sends-company-chiefs-letter-to-sign-praising-her-brexit-plan

What a cheek. I notice even Sky News not willing to sign it. A bit daft, giving a hostage to fortune. It was obviously going to be leaked before it was published in the Times.

Surely it's better if you do think, rather than just making ridiculous assertions with no evidence.

That's very true.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/06/britain-must-solve-problem-of-irish-border-post-brexit-say-leaked-eu-papers

Any bets on who's doing the leaking?
David Davis? Mayhem?

www.theguardian.com/science/2017/sep/06/scientists-fear-brexit-brain-drain-if-leaked-home-office-proposals-implemented

www.theguardian.com/business/2017/sep/06/immigration-plans-cbi-institute-of-directors-eu-brexit

Mayhem is definitely losing backing, every time she comes out with anything else.

GracesGran
Very true.

I think he's a professional agitator, like Corbyn.

And if he gets voted into power Petra you will still think that and it will still not matter one iota.

which bits of it were true, lemongrove
All of it.

but simply that what CJ posted was true about the EU.

Which bits were true, lemongrove?

I'm not denying that some of it was true, just wondering which bits in particular.

Of course, some of it was interpretation of 'fact' so we may disagree on the interpretation.

www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-eu-voters-must-be-allowed-to-change-their-mind-labour-policy-hammond-national-interest-a7929421.html

Excellent article by Stephen Dorrell, showing that I can agree with a Tory occasionally.

Actually durhamjen it isn't the case you state ( regarding CardiffJaguar and posts) but simply that what CJ posted was true about the EU.

Surely it's better if you do think, rather than just making ridiculous assertions with no evidence.

I must stop saying 'I think'
We had a poster on here ( who changed her name several times) who would use those words toooo often

I'm sure I'm not the only one who saw this in the press today.
In July 2015, Owen jones, that beloved leftie journalist of the Guardian wrote,
The left must put Britains eu withdrawal on the agenda
It's a very good article ( I think) because he was giving then every reason why the majority of us voted to leave.
Nothing has changed in the eu, in fact, it's getting worse as in today's news that Hungary, Poland, Czech Republic must take their quota of migrants, how is that heavy handed-ness democratic?
So why has he done a complete 180?
I think he's a professional agitator, like Corbyn.

I said this in a previous post(about Tegan's video link):

some hysterical stuff about German plans for world domination

CardiffJaguar touched on this, though in a more measured fashion :

Only one winner has emerged - Germany.

Since the referendum I have been startled by the number of comments I've seen on social media expressing anti-German feelings. They vary from the statements of perceived 'fact', such as CJ's statement, to a virtual rerun of anti-German sentiment from WWs I and II.

An entirely politically incorrect thought has struck me that if some Leavers are so determined to revive anti-German sentiment in this way and reference two wars in which 'we' fought them to stop them dominating Europe' why are they so keen to run away from them now and leave Germany to undisputed 'domination'?

Or is their determination to leave the arena a declaration of plucky little Britain's resolve to show them that they won't be bossed? Dunkirk spirit indeed, retreat. retreat...

Further to Free Trade Deals, I came across this from the pre-referendum dicussions:

www.standard.co.uk/business/anthony-hilton-brexit-wouldnt-ease-trade-nightmare-a3235071.html

The trade problem is we don’t have enough of the top stuff. McKinsey estimates that only 9% and 5% respectively of our manufacturing employment falls into the first two internationally competitive sector. So firms responsible for only 14% of manufacturing employment have what it takes to achieve significant export growth.

In contrast, we excel in services. We pay our way in the world by the provision of financial and professional services — from insurance to architecture, higher education to health, management consultancy to English law. This is where we have our competitive edge. But trade deals never cover services because of their complexity. Indeed, the only place in the world that tries seriously to do so is the EU.

The ideas being leaked about EU immigration are not likely to get many to come when they know there is a limit of two or maybe five years being able to stay.
Medical personnel are already starting to go back or not come - five years would probably be just long enough to get nicely established on a career path but then people would need to leave the country!

www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-09-05/u-k-labour-party-will-try-to-amend-may-s-brexit-legislation

You should listen to Oliver Letwin trying to explain May's basic philosophy. I don't think he believes what he is saying himself.

That's an excellent article, Maizie, and quite worrying.
Brexiteers seem to forget that the EU has been ever changing over 40 years, and rules and laws are still changing.
They expect it all to be unravelled in two years, which, as Ian Dunt says, is impossible.

This is for Tegan

www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2017/07/13/small-print-of-repeal-bill-creates-unprecedented-new-powers

On the face of it, the repeal bill addresses many of the concerns of its critics. But once you dig in a little further, the full scale of the executive power grab becomes clear. There has never been a piece of legislation like this in modern British history. We have never handed the government so much power.

They are demanding that from us if we want to stay on the same trading terms. Quite fair, really.
A 99% tariff free trade deal is not the same as a tariff free trading deal, is it, which is what we have at the moment.
Canada pays tariffs of 1% on every trade deal.

Sorry, lemongrove, but Cardiffjaguar does not understand the EU any better than I do. Neither of us know what it is all about. It's just that you believe her more than you believe me, because you both voted to leave.