Gransnet forums

News & politics

Lincolnshire slavery

(49 Posts)
Riverwalk Fri 11-Aug-17 18:58:27

What is it with these Christians of Irish heritage?

It's about time they learnt the ways of the West and not treat disadvantaged people with contempt.

Slavery in the UK

Riverwalk Fri 11-Aug-17 19:01:23

Judging from their mugshots they're all of the same cultural and religious background

It's about time their elders spoke out.

Eloethan Fri 11-Aug-17 19:23:40


Eloethan Fri 11-Aug-17 19:24:58

Sorry about that - I agree Riverwalk.

M0nica Fri 11-Aug-17 19:53:57

I think it is true that most of the modern slavery cases involving vulnerable men have been run by Irish travellers. We had a case locally.

I see no problem in saying that certain crimes are more associated with one particular group than another, whether that group is defined by ethnic origin, age or gender. 'Almost all rapists are male' is not a sexist remark, it is the truth. Many of the modern slavery cases involving women enslaved into prostitution seem to involve Eastern European citizens. I say seem because there are as yet no statistics on that.

Being honest about this distribution of certain crimes in certain communities however designed, does not mean that all members of that community or even a large number of them are involved. On the contrary, the number of muslims involved in child sexual exploitation is very small, the number of Irish travellers involved in exploiting vulnerable men likewise and all men are not rapists.

But avoiding addressing these community issues makes it much harder to develop strategies that address both the prevention of the specific crime, and the detection of it when it occurs.

Of course I will dutifully make the proviso. None of these crimes is exclusive to these particular groups but its occurrence is disproportionately high.

Oriel Sat 12-Aug-17 10:09:39

Why do you think they're Christians?

Anniebach Sat 12-Aug-17 10:22:45

I read the link several times, no mention of this family being Christian

gillybob Sat 12-Aug-17 10:25:45

They were what is politically correctly known as "travellers" although accept maybe they don't travel much.

Jane10 Sat 12-Aug-17 10:28:30

Is this how all those 'big fat gypsy weddings' are funded? I always wondered where these people found the money for all that. Lavishly OTT first communions too.

Chewbacca Sat 12-Aug-17 10:30:49

Are they Christians? I missed that bit when I read the News. Not that it make any difference to the appalling savagery they showed their victims though.

TerriBull Sat 12-Aug-17 11:34:29

Possibly "Christians" was a "loaded comment" by the OP in response to the "Newcastle" thread and others where the culprits have been mainly "Muslim" to point out that other cultures are just as capable of behaving in an inhuman way to vulnerable people, inspite of whatever religion they may loosely subscribe to. I can't speak for her but that's my interpretation. The dark side of human nature is unfortunately there in every ethnicity.

Riverwalk Sat 12-Aug-17 11:36:28

Everyone assumed that the men in Newcastle were Moslems, based on their national background, appearance and names - although when any of them last saw the inside of a mosque is anyone's guess.

I'm applying the same assumptions to the Lincs group - based on the above they are likely cradle Catholics, as much 'Christian' as the other men are 'Moslem'.

Just making an observation really as to how people want the Moslem 'community' to do something about their men, as though they are one homogenous group and there is collective responsibility.

Are Traveller, Irish, or Christians responsible for the Lincs. men behaviour?

gillybob Sat 12-Aug-17 11:52:04

I think the OP was as a response to the accusations and convictions surrounding the recent trials and convictions of 17 British Asian/Muslim men in Newcastle and in several other places around the UK . You cannot compare these 2 very separate crimes and it's pointless trying to do so . This crime in Lincolnshire involved a group of "travellers" ( whether they actually travel other than for their luxurious holidays is irelevant). The traveller communities might condemn this crime, there again they might not . Is this sort of crime common among different groups of " travellers" around the UK or is it a one off ? No comparison between the two.

M0nica Sat 12-Aug-17 19:24:31

Did anybody assume that they were muslim. I thought they were known to come from the Islamic community.

As I said in an earlier post, certain crimes are disproportionately common in certain communities whether those communities are defined by faith, ethnicity gender or age and it is silly to deny it and, I must confess, that most of the modern slavery crimes involving vulnerable men that I have seen reported seem to have been perpetrated by members of the Irish travelling community. However, as far as I know these criminals are a very small proportion of the total traveller community,

In the same way that the Muslim perpetrators of sexually predating vulnerable girls are an extremely small and abhorrent group in their community

Oriel Sat 12-Aug-17 20:23:32

Yes, there's no point in pretending otherwise - it's a matter of fact that the men involved are Muslims.

Chewbacca Sat 12-Aug-17 21:01:42

Had there been as many incidents of the Irish travelling community being involved in modern slavery crimes, as there have been predominantly Asian men being involved in rape and sexual assaults against young women; I think the OP would have had a very valid point. But there hasn't. And it's worth noting that, as soon as reports of the slavery crimes came to the attention of the police, the case was investigated quickly and without deference to the cultural ethniticies of those involved. Compare that to how slowly the police and social services investigated the reports of the sex grooming rings in Newcastle; Keighley; Rochdale; Rotherham;Peterborough; Aylesbury; Oxford & Bristol, even when presented with evidence that it was occurring. They were more willing to continue to allow young girls to be drugged and raped, for years, rather than run the risk of being labelled racists. The same cannot be said about the way the modern slavery crimes were investigated.

Devorgilla Sat 12-Aug-17 21:22:10

Surely the key factor is that it is people (male or otherwise) abusing vulnerable people. The religion has nothing to do with it. People do not do these things because they are members of a particular religion or ethnicity. They do it because they have the desire to do this. They do it because they think they can get away with it. They do it because they want to make money from it.

Chewbacca Sat 12-Aug-17 21:28:33

What money did the Asian men make out of drugging and raping young women across 8 English cities Devorgilla ? We know that the Irish travellers accused of modern slavery worked their victims into the ground for no wages at all. But the girls who were drugged and raped were drugged and raped for the pleasure of it. Not for profit.

Oriel Sat 12-Aug-17 22:10:23


The Muslim religion does have a lot to do with it.

Muslim women are viewed as very much second class citizens and non-Muslim women even lower. Of course not all Muslims adhere to the letter of their holy book but for those wishing to justify their behaviour it certainly aids and abets it.

Iam64 Sun 13-Aug-17 13:47:33

Chewbacca, a number of men involved in the trafficking and sexual exploitation of vulnerable white girls did make money from it. Other men paid to have sex with these girls. The older girls who had already been damaged by their involvement, were used to bring in other younger, girls and it seems, given cash ( very small amount) for doing so.

These are cultural issues. Most of the men involved in the recent well publicised child sexual exploitation trials have been Muslims. Some have been well known in their mosque and community as "respectable" people. Some have been counsellors or community leaders. Many have not been practicing their faith in that they drink alcohol, take drugs and commit crime.
The travelling community does indeed travel. It's a key part of their cultural identity. They may be housed and often are but they will share a trailer with extended family and often travel from June to September, with children missing school as a result.
All the travelling families I know are from the Roman Catholic faith. They have lavish ceremonies for things like Christenings, first communion and weddings . It's also true that some families are well known for specific criminal activities, well, some branches of families. Others are more law abiding and more integrated into their local communities.
Domestic violence is generally a crime committed by men, but some women are horrifically violent and controlling. Same goes for child sexual abuse, mainly a crime committed by men but some women are perpetrators.
We have to be able to tell it like it is. It isn't true that no travellers travel, it isn't true all Catholics are crooks, nor is it true that all Muslims are involved in exploitation of vulnerable young white girls, or jihadi's. That doesn't mean we can't and shouldn't discuss the prevalence of some communities in particular crimes.
Door men anybody - drug dealing part of that work, yes it often is but not always.

Iam64 Sun 13-Aug-17 13:48:01

Apologies for such a long rant. If I could edit it I would.

TerriBull Sun 13-Aug-17 14:55:21

Iam64, I think you have made some very good points. I can't help thinking that those in the travelling community, as you say the word is a bit of a misnoner, because they don't all travel, use the church to facilitate rather extravagent over the top christenings, weddings and first communions. There were plenty of Irish in my congregation when I was growing up but the "big fat psuedo religious" celebration, I don't think would have been encouraged a while ago, it seems to be a bit of a recent phenomonen.

TerriBull Sun 13-Aug-17 15:02:32

Corrections - pseudo, phenomenon. Problems with my ph's today. It's all Greek to me confused think that's right now, hope so!

whitewave Sun 13-Aug-17 15:27:25

I was watching a discussion on the television with 4 youngish people of the Islamic faith.

They seemed as far as I understood to argue that the problem is cultural rather than specifically faith based, and suggested that a particular area in the world which covers, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Arabian peninsular etc. (senior moment - I can't remember the name of the area) has a cultural attitude towards women that reinforces the sort of behaviour we are seeing in places like Rotherham.

Boys are brought up in households where respect and honour are qualities that are highly valued and exist primarily as a virtue for women. So the women in a typical family is expected to spend her life within the home, cooking, cleaning, child bearing and rearing.

When these boys grow up and entire public life, they are often shocked and surprised by what to them is immodest, disrespectful behaviour on the part of young women, not brought up into their culture.
Of course 99.9% of these young men deal with it quite happily, but there are as we know those who take advantage of these "lose" women.

Iam64 Sun 13-Aug-17 19:38:16

Did anyone else read the article in today's DM on line, by Afzhal Khan the former CPS leader in Manchester, who insisted that the issue of CSE of vulnerable white girls in Rochdale by men of largely Pakistani Muslim background be properly investigated so prosecution could follow? I'm away with no access to paper news papers but I did read this article earlier today. I'm a fan of this individual. He tells it like it is and made similar points to those made by whitewave ab out the influence of cultural attitudes to gender in this communities.
I live and worked in an area with a large community from the Pakistani Muslim population. We've avoided race riots but the separation of that community from others in our very mixed area seems increasingly the case.
We have a large number of African asylum seekers living locally. When the primary and high school children are on their way home from school, you see large mixed groups of white British, African, Eastern European etc walking home or playing football together. The Pakistani Muslim children seem to me to be much more separate than they were 30 years ago.