Sovereignty and 'take back control'

This is what sovereignty is all about, is it?

Tories have been told not to vote at all on opposition day motions for the rest of this parliament.

t.co/gKWknBwUdF

Did you vote for politicians or children?

"In a major shift, Tory sources told HuffPost UK that the party’s MPs would not oppose any future non-binding Opposition Day motions for the rest of the Parliament."

"Labour’s Angela Rayner said that May was ‘running scared’ of Parliament. Kevin Brennan raised the fascinating prospect of some Labour MPs taking the Government’s place in opposing a motion, just to allow a division. That could result in a series of 262-0 votes. Labour says this latest contempt for the Commons is of a piece with May’s ‘power grab’ on standing committees, on the EU Withdrawal Bill’s Henry VIII powers and refusal to allow time for Opposition debates. Many Tories will shrug and say ‘suck it up, we’ve got a working majority’. But some may think it’s just not cricket. The biggest winners of all, again, are the DUP – who can vote how they like while getting that big £1bn for Northern Ireland. Speaker Bercow has an interview with the Institute for Government today (where Commons Leader Andrea Leadsom is set to appear), so he may share his views on the new Government approach."

Wondering what the Lords are making of these shenanigans. When the Government plays by the rules the Lords do too. But if the Lords think the government are pushing the boundaries like this I suspect they are going to flex their muscles. I do hope so.

Bre it thread reachedmaxnu bed so posting here.

Not just Michael then!

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/20/us-airlines-aviation-regulations-post-brexit-open-skies-agreement-eu?CMP=share_btn_link

Sent from my iPad

Bre it thread reachedmaxnu bed so posting here.

(I presume that's meant to be 'Brexit' thread, Welshwife )

I did think about starting a 'whingers' thread..

There is also huge concern about the readiness of Customs:

Hammond admits to the Lords Economic Affairs Committee that Brexit could cause major problems at our ports:

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/brexit-customs-checks-philip-hammond_uk_59b8067ce4b027c149e2d85d

Chris Cook of the BBC points out what would need to be done if there is 'no deal' and the fact that there are no signs of it being implemented

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41271028

Then, of course, there is the cost to businesses of the administration involved in exporting to the EU as a 'third country' and complying with all the differing regulations of countries exported to under the wonderful new 'bi-lateral trade agreements' which we're supposed to be making...

Port employees have been saying there are just not the facilities at the ports for a long time - no one seemed to take it seriously.

Talking about the readiness of Customs - it is clear that the UK will be almost certainly not be ready by March 2019, even if we started preparing the software and infrastructure today, but what many don't seem to understand that the EU will need the same infrastructure on their borders with the UK. There will be nothing done until Brexit actually happens, and what the hell happens on day 1 to goods we are hoping to import to Europe?

I was thinking the same thing WW about the EU ports and customs - they are in much the same position. However for them the trade to UK is a far smaller percentage of their total trade than it is for UK to the EU.
It would be interesting to see the amounts/percentages of the food needed by UK and the EU which would be disrupted. That I think will be the most immediate and important problem.

I am also wondering whether the EU will demand that we contribute financially towards the setting up of these - it was nothing of their wanting and only ours -so it seems obvious to me for them to demand some contribution.

Apologies if not the right thread but can anyone please explain why we should be paying the EU any money to leave?

If we paid £ XYZ in over the years and had £ X back (with no control as to how we spent it) surely it should be them refunding us?

A naïve question perhaps? would appreciate if anyone could explain (in idiots terms please)

The EU sets a budget every 5 or maybe 7 years to which all members are contractually obliged to contribute. This includes infrastructure projects , subsidies, salaries, pensions - you name it etc.

The next budget is due to end something like 2021,.
The UK is a signatory to this budget which has been drawn up in the expectation of U.K. Contributions.

We are legally and imo morally obliged contractually to complete these payments.

Undoubtedly there will be some give and take but we will and should be expected to honour our contractural obligation.

The date and length of years are probably incorrect but you get the drift hopefully?

1) because we have' as a member of the EU been party to commitments to future budget spending which cannot be reneged on.
2) There is the question of who foots the bill for UK MEP's pensions (including all those useless & inactive UKIP MEPs)

3) Because if we reneged on our commitments who on earth is going to trust us in the future?

Brexiters keep throwing in this 'leaving a golf club' analogy but I doubt that golf clubs make firm future spending commitments on the strength of their current membership subscriptions.

If we paid £ XYZ in over the years and had £ X back (with no control as to how we spent it) surely it should be them refunding us?

Why does everyone keep talking about the EU as though it is a an entity over which no-one has any control? It is an association of 28 countries which all have an equal say in its decisions and as individuals have the power to influence them (look at the way Walloonia held up the CETA agreement until it was satisfied it didn't loose out by it) . The UK has played a significant role in this over the years. Who devised and pushed through the Single Market? Maggie Thatcher's great achievement...

Why does everyone keep talking about the EU as though it is a an entity over which no-one has any control?

My cry too Maizie except I might say 'Why does everyone keep talking about the EU as though we didn't agree to it all. It all spoken about as if it was done to us rather than something we agreed to do with partners.

Is that the biggest difference between brexiteers and remainers?

Brexiteers say I didn't vote for....
Remainers say we agreed to....

Well they may not personally have 'voted for' but each time the changes were passed, either by a referendum with a far greater majority than the one we just had or a majority elected government, but they are the ones who keep rabbiting on about people 'not accepting democracy'.

I think it would be great if they actually understood democracy is constantly moving forward not, as Vince Cable said about them yesterday They now believe in the slogan of dictators everywhere: ‘one person, one vote, once!’.

Take back control?
How many brexiteers think we have got control of our NHS?
We haven't.
How many Brexiteers are unconcerned about the NHS and don't mind if it gets into US private healthcare companies hands?
Lots of them.

www.opendemocracy.net/ournhs/john-lister/if-our-government-won-t-act-to-save-our-nhs-then-we-must

How many Brexiters will take ownership of the shambles?

I think the NHS is a huge worry - I would hate to see the UK in the situation of some countries where those who cannot pay their insurance premiums don't qualify for treatment.

If they do go along that road I hope they have the type where companies cannot refuse anyone due to pre existing conditions - they cannot refuse you in France for that. - neither can they ask you about existing conditions when you buy holiday insurance.

28 countries which all have an equal say
That's until you disagree with Juncker and Tusk ( ask the Poles)
The eu states that Poland will be stripped of their voting rights if it goes ahead with proposals to force all Supreme Court judges into retirement.
Democracy in action ?

Why do you think the decision is being made about the voting rights?

In order to belong to the EU , each country has to fulfil certain obligations, this includes what we so rightly enjoy - an independent judiciary. The Polish people are alarmed and protesting at what the hard right Conservative government plans to do. It has nothing to do with democracy. The EU are reminding Poland of its obligations.

durhamjen
How many Remainers think we have control of the NHS.
We haven't
How many Remainers are unconcerned about NHS and don't mind if it gets into US private healthcare companies hands.
Lots of them.

www.opendemocracy.net/uk/brexitinc/peter-geoghegan-adam-ramsay/new-email-release-shows-how-leave-campaigners-used-vast-loo

This helped Brexit to win.

The 'take back control' thing is just a ridiculous. With various things we agreed to share sovereignty because we felt it was for our benefit. Nobody took it.