Voting for Jeremy Corbyn - the political equivalent of buying a Harley Davidson

Good Brexit debate - democracy in action!!!

Wonder what we will hear from the Tory party. Certainly nothing like this.

I see no reason to disbelieve the figures dbDB77. You had me thinking your were querying my figures! I am sure the membership will have something to say if they think something is wrong.

What I do believe is that you are using this rather tenuous argument because you don't agree with what the Labour Party stands for. How about putting a proper discussion together about policy rather than grasping a straws ?

Then you quoted UNITE .Jen, no difference . I am surprised you are accepting no vote on brexit, you have certaintly been very vocal on the subject before and since the referendum .

It was said on the news this morning momentum has issued instructions that debate on brexit must be - softly, softly

I didn't say it, Annie. It was a link to a Unite article, about the people getting rid of this Tory government and voting in a Labour one.

"The cuts are so bad that a local government leader warned: “Even if councils stop filling in potholes, maintaining parks, closed all children’s centres, libraries, museums, leisure centres and turned off every street light, they will not have saved enough money to plug the financial black hole they face by 2020”. A remarkable assessment and even more so as it was made by Lord Porter, the Conservative chair of the Local Government Association.

The ultimate solution is to rid ourselves of this god-forsaken Conservative government and replace it with a Labour government. Labour’s current national policy forum report demonstrates the clear red water which exists on local government when it states: “Labour is committed to ensuring local government funding is sustainable for the long term.” "

What they are saying is that in some areas funding has been cut by 60%. The Tories should be punished for that.

I think the Labour Party is being very politically astute in allowing a good time for debate on Brexit, but avoiding a vote which will tie them into a position which allows for no flexibility over the coming months and years.

Shadow Chancellor put a good case forward this morning in Today, arguing that access to the single market is the absolute ideal, but at the same time they are in talks with Europe over the immigration issue, which he thought was one of the main issues for Labour Party supports because high levels of immigration allows unscrupulous employers to exploit the situation and give poor working conditions and low wages as a result.

He is hopeful that many European countries re ognise this issue in their own country and are seeking to bring in reform to stop this.
If this is the case we can do a deal with Europe over the single market as the immigration issue will have been resolved.

For me it goes a way in recognising the need for the single market, but my preference is of course to remain.

This debate will continue.

That's my point dj - even when they could vote at the touch of a button, only 12% of Unite members voted in their leadership election despite massive national publicity. Therefore the idea that millions of union members voted on topics for debate at LP conference is a nonsense.
As I said "if members can't be bothered to participate then so be it, but let's not pretend it's democratic representation."
McDonnell said on Today this morning that the process was "democratic" - a comment that is so misleading.

Eleothan, Jen said the unions were punishing the tories, I just questioned her claim , read the posts again - I know you will find that

anniebach You say unions are punishing the Tories. I think you will find that it's the Tories who are punishing working people. Not just public service workers but people employed in the private sector too. In-work benefits have been cut and wages have fallen in real terms because wage increases have not kept pace with price increases.

Public service workers have endured 7 years of 1% annual pay increases, and many private sector workers have been pretty hard hit too. When they see MPs being awarded 11% increases and members of the House of Lords pocketing vast amounts of money for doing very little, is it any wonder that they have had enough and are talking of strikes.

"He told an audience at Momentum’s World Transformed Festival during the Labour conference that Mr Corbyn had "proved me and others wrong" and he had made "the right decision" to keep his team in place after the snap election in June. "

Who was this talking at the Momentum festival today?

There's a debate tomorrow morning on Brexit, a general debate.
Is that not enough?

Get real, db.
They don't need to go to meetings now. They can vote online.
It's as democratic as the Brexit vote, surely, and the election, whatever election you are talking about.
You can't say it's not democratic just because people don't turn up to vote. We'd never have any councillors if that is your criterion.
Only the Tory laws on union voting for strikes requires a majority of the membership to actually put in voting slips or a show of hands. That was just to dilute the union vote.

So now unions are bringing on strikes to punish the tories, nothing to do with working for less than the minimum wage

And which unions have members working for less than thsn the minimum wage?

I don't believe three million turned out to vote for the tower sorry

Oh dj get real - you seriously think 3 million union members turned out & voted for the issue of Grenfell Tower to be debated at LP conference? You're the one having a laugh. Only 12% of Unite members could be bothered to vote in their recent leadership election.
As a union activist for most of my working life I despaired of getting members to come to meetings - and for conference mandating meetings we would have been pleased to get a 5% turnout. Our delegates represented activists' views not those of the wider membership. If members can't be bothered to participate, then so be it - but let's not pretend it's a democratic representation.

labourlist.org/2017/09/unite-voters-should-punish-the-tories-for-these-wicked-cuts-to-our-local-services/

This is what unions are fighting for. Rightly, I think.

I'm not sure I care what others think of the subjects chosen. It was up to the Labour Party to choose - that's why people join and get involved. This was not a national vote. I am not a member but what I was trying to show is how these things are done. I find it interesting and I thought a few others might too.

No I am not saying that Jen, I will repeat , I am against the minority deciding for the majority . The unions bosses are not earning their generous wages if the members are working for less than the minimum wage

dbDB77 unfortunately I have deleted the recording of the announcement of the votes - obviously I could have made a mistake typing the figures up but I was very careful. I have put the TV to record it when it is repeated overnight. Hopefully I will be able to check when I have some time tomorrow.

Brexit is to be debated, but not voted on.
Brexit could be part of the workers rights debate.
Are you saying that workers rights are not important, Annie?
Are you saying that employers should be able to get away with paying less than the minimum wage?

Workers rights more important to the country than brexit or more important to the unions ? I am against the less than 50% vote for a strike , what is democratic about less voting to strike than wanting to remain in work and the lower number dragging the larger number out of work?

Which unions would vote for Grenfell?
All the FBU, the nurses, doctors, ambulance unions.
All the teaching unions who saw how many children were killed?
All the government workers who have had to put up with shoddy materials for their jobs?
All the builders who were asked to build with materials that they knew were inferior just because of the cost?
I think you'll find more than three million in that list.

I feel quite sickened that it should make you think of a Mel Smith sketch.

GGMk2 - really interesting list - I didn't know the details of how topics for debate were chosen - all I remember hearing is how the LP conference is democratic with members deciding the agenda - but 2.9 million people really voted for Grenfell Tower to be debated? I don't think so - reminds me of that Not the Nine o'clock News sketch when the union delegates break for refreshments "how many for tea?" 8 people "how many for coffee?" only Mel Smith for coffee - "so it's tea then" At which point Mel Smith calls for a card vote and his 1 million members votes means everyone has coffee

Yes; that's my problem, Maisie. I feel that Labour are so concerned that the will of the people will be met, and that us 48% ers are just being ignored. You could also argue that there's no point debating the Grenfell Tower disaster until all inquiries have been completed. Which doesn't mean that I don't care about that (and it's awful of me to use it as an example, but I don't know of another one to use). Brexit is going to shape the future of this country more than any other issue and it seems wrong to be almost ignoring it.

I think, though, that Labour Remainers and people who voted Labour expecting a determined opposition to May's Brexit, must feel somewhat let down. Saying 'Keir's on the case' doesn't really hack it for them.

I know brexit is important, but the topics on the list seem more relevant at the moment, the future of the NHS worries me more that brexit.
Workers rights a a worry, perhaps because of brexit and the Conservatives wanting to reduce workers rights.
Public sector pay is relevant because of the shortage of medical staff, and the difficulties with recruitment.
Housing is a massive topic, we all know there is a shortage of affordable homes to buy or rent.
Social care, another big topic.

So yes, I think they are my pet topics too. Perhaps because they just seem so much more immediate.
The Labout party is not in power, so however much they discussed brexit, they are not the ones doing the negotiating, that is the Conservatives. Why not wait and see what the Conservatives put forward for their idea of brexit, which is not clear yet, and then debate whether we like the sound of it or not.