Which countries are socialist.

mary ? Nor sure what you mean, can you expand your point please?

What I think I mean is that in a democratic socialist country, all adults would have the vote and there would be fair and free elections but there would not be a 'market' the State would run and provide everything. With social democratic countries, the role of the state in ensuring the health and welfare of its citizens is an accepted part of the social fabric but there are market forces in play although their worst excesses are mitigated through state action. The balance between the state and the market would vary between different countries which could all nevertheless be described as social democratic ( the franchise is of course a given)

Just shows you should read the whole thread, doesn't it, GracesGran?

So do you think that the countries in GracesGran's list are social democratic countries?

To a greater or lesser extent yes given there's a spectrum - except don't know about NL

I'm not sure if there are such countries of your description of democratic socialism mary?

But I think the Nordic countries are

Sorry - fuzzy headed moment. I agree, there aren't- there could be theoretically but not in practice

According to wiki, The Labour Party has an ideology of democratic socialism (and social democracy, of course)

There's a list of parties there and several parties who have governed, such as Sandinista NLF and PAIS.

It surely can't have both, Primrose.

In my lifetime the Labour Party has never run a full 'command' economy and has (apart, perhaps, from its very far left wing) never, to my knowledge, had any aspiration to do so. so where does the wiki statement that it has 'an ideology of democratic socialism' come from, I wonder?

Perhaps more knowledgeable Labour people could tell me?

I imagine there's a political dictionary definition of what everything means and an everyday language interpretation. And ideology is not the same as policies which were passed into legislation.

If you're interested in where it comes from check out the wiki page, everything is referenced.

Actually, reading through both the 1974 manifestos, they would be considered pretty full on today - maximum prices for certain foods, unit prices for meat, fish, fruit & veg and "Industrial Democracy Act, as agreed in our discussions with the TUC, to increase the control of industry by the people"

I think 1974 was probably 'peak democratic socialism' for the LP but I have not compared these to the ideas from the conference last week.

I think that what has happened since the 80s our economy has moved right of the centre of the linear line, which took our economy slightly more towards a free market economy. The Labour Party manifesto therefore seems to be more left wing than it actually is because of the prism we are looking through, but in actual fact it would be indistinguishable from the Nordic model -well probably more to the right of it.

I wonder if you really can have democratic socialism at all ? Maybe it's a logical impossibility.

The political reality is quite often a logical impossibility!

Somewhere in my fuzzy head are the words Alice and Rabbit Hole which is where I feel I am heading. I still think it's all about degrees of social democracy. Neither of the extremes - socialism or the unfettered free market- work. The market, regulated to a greater or lesser extent by the state will always have a role and collective provision by the state will always have a role - but just like the market the scope of that will vary between societies and across time. Isn't that what all the political discussions boil down to?

If you're interested in where it comes from check out the wiki page, everything is referenced.

There are thousands of wiki pages, Primrose. Do you think you could give me a little hint as to which one you're citing? A link perhaps?

mary yes - but think of the enormous arguments it causes

Mary, there was, just after the war (so they tell me) a brief period where there was a consensus about the mixed economy. I don't think we have seen one since and I am not sure that any party has ever put it forward as policy. They always seem to be telling us we must move in one direction or the other.

beastrabban.wordpress.com/2017/09/30/the-rise-of-fascism-and-the-failure-of-neoliberal-capitalism/

A very interesting read.