Catalonia

Shocking to see how brutal the police, behaved, obviously the government is very unnerved with what is apparently an overwhelming desire by the Catalan people for independence, quite unlike the Scots who were split when they had their legal referendum. The EU in their desire to see the whole of Europe as a homogenised bloc is keeping very quiet. I don't know how such consensus can be ignored, and if it is, I can't help feeling that will lead to civil unrest and more brutality. There doesn't seem to be a soft peddle "better together" type of campaign over there, but perhaps the government knows that they can't sell that idea to the Catalans as their desire to be separate is so unanimous. The Franco regime wasn't so long ago and no doubt the tactics of the police will bring back echos of that era for many. I had a Spanish neighbour who moved back to Girona, and often she would tell me it wasn't good growing up in Franco's Spain.

It isn't altogether clear that Catalans do have an overwhelming desire to be separate. The 60% figure is apparently the number who voted in a previous, legal, referendum to remain part of Spain. there is a view that the current situation has been engineered by a separatisit minority.

The EU in their desire to see the whole of Europe as a homogenised bloc is keeping very quiet

From what I have read it seems that the Catalan separatists want, like Scotland, to remain in the EU. So the 'bloc' would not be unduly changed by Catalan independence. As it is an internal sovereign government matter the EU has no business to interfere. The most they can do is, as they have with Poland, threaten to invoke Article 7 (suspension of voting rights) if Spain is acting in a way which contravenes the principles of the pertinent treaty (be it Rome, Maastricht or Lisbon, I can't remember which). Individuals, such as Guy Verhofstadt, have condemned the violence. and apparently Angela Merkel has been in contact with the Spanish PM.

Apologies for capitalisation fails.

I agree with Lemongrove, the Spanish government should have allowed the referendum to go ahead and ignored the results. In fact, ignored the whole process from start to finish, and carried on as usual after the event. No one else in Europe or maybe the world would have recognised this breakaway state which in time would have almost certainly fizzled out. Instead of which, there have been appalling scenes of violence which the world has witnessed understandably stirring up sympathy for the would be breakaway state which will probably continue for months or even years.

making a bad situation a million times worse.

Because I have nothing but contempt for the Westminster government ,we were subject to the most ridiculous and disgusting treatment at the last referendum.Lies ...well documented ,patronising displays of MP's who neither knew anything about Scotland OR cared what happened here sent up en masse to keep us in our place ,the "vow" that was on newspaper front pages that was then denied ,old peoples homes being targetted and inhabitants scared into voting NO because they were told their pensions would be lost if the vote was YES....the "fact" that the oil was drying u...although theres video proof of Denis Healey saying the same thing in 1979 ..apparently THEN we had only 20 years of oil left!! Its only a small step for a government desperate to hold onto us to go from lies and misinformation to the sort of brutality seen in Catalonia yesterday ......and I wouldn't put it past them .62% of Scots voted REMAIN in the brexit fiasco ..yet we're being dragged out of the EU against our will....that alone shows we have NO control over our own country .

WRT my last post. It's Article 2 of the Lisbon Treaty

The Union is founded on the values of respect for human dignity, freedom, democracy, equality, the rule of law and respect for human rights, including the rights of persons belonging to minorities. These values are common to the Member States in a society in which pluralism, non-discrimination, tolerance, justice, solidarity and equality between women and men prevail.

(my emphasis in bold)

www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/the-lisbon-treaty/treaty-on-european-union-and-comments/title-1-common-provisions/2-article-2.html

When people were interviewed yesterday many of them said they did not want separation did not agree with the referendum and had no intention of voting. This is shown also by the fact that only 42% of the voting population actually voted - and it was 90% of the 42% who voted to leave.
The last vote was a 60/40 division so not much has changed except that if anything the percentage for leaving has decreased.

One issue is that the country’s constitution says Spain is indivisible - the court has already ruled that an independence referendum is illegal. So with respect to the Lisbon treaty, the Spanish government are upholding the rule of law.

I don't think we can set any store by the number who actually voted - many polling stations were forcibly closed, there was the fear of violence if you went out to vote. The real issue is the atrocious behaviour of the Spanish police and especially in a region where Franco is not a distant memory to many.

twitter.com/paulmasonnews

Report by Paul Mason who is/was there.

But beware of Paul Mason. He's spreading misinformation about the EU on twitter. Making up quotes from Article 7. of the Lisbon Treaty

Primrose65 do you think the violence we've seen including police charging when a man having a heart attack was being worked on,a women dragged by the hair ,people old and young battered by batons ,ballot boxed pulled from staion and thrown in the street is a sign of Spain "upholding the rule of law" if you do then god help us all ..its fascism ..nothing mnore nothing less.There have been YEARS of growing commitment to a Catalonian referendum ,marches and rallies of over a million people many times...why hasn't Spain set up talks BEFORE the date instead of this vile setting the Guardia on people who they say are Spanish ?Beggars belief ...that ANY western government behaves this way.If it were a country seeking independence from Russia or in the middle east everyone would be applauding them ..why the difference here?

It's not long since Gen. Franco died (1975) and he still has a lot of support.

Is he? Where?

I am in Catalonia at the moment, not for any political reason but simply to enjoy some sunshine and attend the Rolling Stones Concert. (because "This could be the last time" )
Seeing the areas around the local polling stations crammed with families there to ensure that the police could not impede the vote, the doors removed so that they could not be locked, made me feel humbled.
If, during the Scottish referendum, Westminster had sent in police to remove ballot boxes (or intimidate the population in any way) then Scotland would be an independent country today.
Spain has scored an own goal by being so heavy handed. They should be censured by the EEC and a free vote allowed without duress.

Wow, they used children as a human shield against the police. I'm not humbled by that, I'm disgusted.

Link please

Wake up DJ.:
www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/catalonia-independence-referendum-polls-open-vote-protests-barcelona-madrid-police-guardia-civil-a7976791.html

I think dj was referring to Paul Mason not Franco

The only thing I've read about the involvement of children is that parents and children slept overnight in schools to try to ensure that the schools could be kept open for voters.

Some people think that Spain is all 'Una Paloma Blanca' it's not, it's a very conservative country.

twitter.com/lizcastro/status/914433815766093825

Article seven of the EU treaty says that any state that breaks article two can have its rights suspended.

Paul Mason said he had seen two thousand riot police on ships in the harbour, waiting for permission to come onshore.
It's no wonder only 40% of the population voted. I agree with Esspee, Spain has scored an own goal.

Yes, I was referring to Paul Mason. Unfortunately two other posts got in before me.
I know Franco is dead, thanks, Tricia. In fact I have been following Paul Mason's frightening tweets.

You'll be telling me next that the woman who had her fingers broken one by one by these "police" deserved it for trying to vote.
Another way of disrupting the vote was to stop the wifi. All the people who vote have to have a link on their mobiles. They were asked to put them om aeroplane mode outside the polling stations so that the 4G system still worked inside.

www.theweek.co.uk/catalonia-independence/88743/catalonia-90-back-independence-on-day-of-violence

Why did police need to use rubber bullets? One man lost an eye.