Catalonia

I think the Spanish government handled this very badly and probably strengthened the resolve of many to push for independence.

Because the government declared the referendum illegal, it is said that some people did not vote so, in my view anyway, the result of the referendum should not be deemed to support breaking away.

I think the government should have agreed to a referendum - perhaps with a stipulation as to a fairly high threshold for minimum turnout - and then should have abided by the result.

I instinctively feel that it is better for countries to stay together but I don't know enough of the history of Catalonia and its relationship with Spain to understand why some Catalonians want to be independent. I do feel, though, that the fact that this region is, I think, one of the richest in Spain has some bearing on the issue. I find it slightly worrying that the push for independence appears sometimes to be based on the wish to hang on to one's own natural wealth. On the other hand, I do understand people in outlying regions, away from central government, feeling that they are being ignored or not receiving a fair share of a country's wealth. It's a difficult issue.

The Spanish had a vote nearly 40 years ago, so can't have another?
We did the same over the EU. We've had another. Why can't they?

Eloethan the Catalans also didn't vote because they knew the thugs were there to stop them, and the polling stations were being closed. Not a proper referendum.

The Spanish government would have a more powerful argument if they had let the Catalans vote with dignity. Or were they so scared that they would lose that they couldn't afford to let them?

If Spain allows referendum for one state, then it has to for all states as and when they feel inclined and that would risk splitting the country up into separate regions causing long term instability and, if the past is anything to go by potential hostilities. It would give the green light to other countries to do the same.
Just because we have had two referendums it doesn't mean Spain has to, or any other country come to that. Surely how they run things is for them to decide, and nothing to do with what other countries do.

Surely the over-riding principal is the right to self determination. If the majority of the citizens of Catalonia have voted to be an Independent republic and the democratically elected government have voted 'si' decisively then surely it is up to the international community to accept this and recognise the new state. It is interesting that the first country to make such a statement was Finland - veterans of a similar fight to establish their autonomy.

They were allowed to, Granny23 because they were escaping from Russian control.
I expect someone to come along and say that's completely different.

Eleothan
You have mentioned the two most, imho elements of this conflict.
In the Spanish civil war Catalonia was held by the anarchists. In the big scheme of things this is very recent history. Then there's the money ( it nearly always comes down to money)
It's an extremely wealthy area but there is still much poverty. If your a young educated unemployed person, and it's very high in Spain, and you see and understand how much money your area is generating and you feel that your government is mis-handling the economy........well?

durhamjen
i expect someone to come along and say that's completely different
As you would.

German MEP Jo Leinen has stated that the policy of national armies can not continue for much longer
They are giving the reason as money, it costs too much.
Now let's suppose that this eu army was now up and running. Could you say that the eu wouldn't use 'that' army.

" If the majority of the citizens of Catalonia have voted to be an Independent republic and the democratically elected government have voted 'si' decisively then surely it is up to the international community to accept this and recognise the new state. "

Nobody knows what percentage of the Catalan citizens would vote for Independence !

The international community can only respect the Spanish Constitution and only comment on the need for dialogue between the Catalan Government and the Spanish Government.

The snap election on 21st December will either lead to a possible change of the Catalan Government and one that does not want Independence or Charles Puigdemont will win and the question then will be what will Rajoy do.

Will Rajoy and the Spanish Government ever allow Independence for Catalan by allowing an Independence vote to take place and agreeing to abide the outcome ?

I shouldn't think so as it could open the floodgates!

Bearing in mind niggly that the eu will allow no dissension in the ranks

Certainly NOT! Doom and despair if you even think of it, complete destruction. If you have a go at it!!,

Maybe for some, niggly but not for this 'little Island'

Anyone landing here right now, from outer space, would think that we had never run our own affairs before.?

Surely the over-riding principal is the right to self determination.

Problem is, this is all very fuzzy.

First of all, who says that there is a 'right to self determination'?

Then, who has this 'right' and who doesn't? In the UK we might argue that Scotland and Wales might have this 'right' as they are recognised as 'countries' but what about, say, Cornwall, or, Yorkshire? What if they declared that they had a historic language and culture different from the rest of England and were so distinctly different that they should be independent? What about parts of Northumberland that shuttled between England and Scotland over the course of the centuries, what if they wanted to be independent of both?

P.S I'm not expecting anyone to take those examples seriously, but just to think about the 'principle' and the concept of what constitutes a 'nation'. Really, a great many 'countries' are a compromise solution to centuries of amalgamations of differing groups under one rule; 'one rule' which could frequently change by conquest, dynastic marriage arrangements or even mutually agreed swapping of one bit of territory for another. Sometimes the compromise works fine and sometimes it doesn't.

According to the opinion polls the majority of Catalonians have not favoured independence. The government in Madrid could have let the referendum go ahead and encouraged the Catalonian "remainers" to vote. Instead they adopted a heavy-handed approach.

A related problem seems to be the inflexibility of a written constitution.....

I assume it's the case that a written constitution is generally held to be "set in stone" but why can't it be amended if it is felt that it does not address current issues? My understanding is that laws, in order to maintain legitimacy, must be observed and respected by the majority of the population.

Even if the constitution prevents a referendum re independence, I think if there is widespread demand for such a referendum then it must be acceded to. If, as grumppa says may be the case, the majority of Catalonians wish to remain as part of Spain, then a legal and properly organised referendum would evidence that. If not, I can't see how the Catalonians can be forced to be part of Spain against their wishes - at least not without a lot of unpleasantness and possibly the threat of civil disturbances and violence.

One of the problems of a written constitution is shown by the US gun laws.
However, an unwritten one like ours means that the government can't be held to account.

Perhaps a government cannot be held to account, but it can be voted out.

What concerns me is that the heavy-handedness of the Madrid government may tip the balance of opinion in favour of independence, just as the behaviour of Juncksr and co. provides ammunition for the Brexiteers.

Puigdemont and others are in Brussels and will give a speech/press conference at 11.30 am .

It is being mooted they may be asking for Asylum. Good grief .

If and it's a big 'if' they feel the need seek Asylum it is something you read / hear about happening in countries with dubious governance but in a democratic , European country I am shocked at the thought let alone if it proves to be true.

What a conundrum.

While Catalonia might have voted NO in a referendum if Spain had allowed it, other provinces now or in the future might want the same arrangement and vote YES. What Spain allows for one area, it must allow for another risking the breakup of the country and all the instability that inevitably brings. I just can't begin to understand why the Catalonian government held this referendum in the first place as, being experienced politicians, they must have know perfectly well what Madrids reaction would be. A case of promising things you know you almost certainly can't deliver. Have it as an aspiration by all means, but not a promise unless you're certain you can fulfil it!

Good point MaisyD Just because someone comes up with a stirring phrase like "The right to self-determination" (or "We want our country back" for that matter) does not mean that a/ there is a right for any group of citizens to pack up and leave the political entity to which they have previously been a part. It's all too easy to wind people up into a nationalistic fervour but that does not mean that it is a Good Thing.
There are a huge number of languages spoken in Europe, some of them spanning the borders of more than one state. There is no "right" for them all to form independent countries. Neither is it always a viable option e.g Welsh independence is still an aim of Plaid Cymru. Despite the fact that an independent Wales would not be able to afford modern healthcare and education.