Catalonia

lemongrove
They've done it, direct rule over Catalonia. I dread to think what violence ensue.

What a mess.?

Eeeek! What now? I have a very bad feeling about all this. Personally I think it was very foolish and wrong of the Catalonian government to have an illegal referendum in the first place, leading people to believe that they could break away, presumably without incurring the wrath of Madrid! Either the Catalonian government was immensely naive or just plain deceitful.

Businesses have already started to move their headquarters out of the region and the govt have made it easier to do that.
I agree with you lemongrove - a real mess.

It is frightening that this can happen in an EU country and makes me wonder what will happen with Gibraltar post-Brexit.

Gibraltar isn't part of Spain, (Catalonia is) hasn't been since 1713 and nothing to do with Madrid. If Spain tries to take Gibraltar by force it would be an aggressive, illegal act with obvious consequences. 96% of Gibaltarians voted in a legal referendum to remain a British Crown Colony, so unless the people of Gibraltar change their minds or we change ours and negotiate it away, I can't see Gibraltar being in peril.

jalima
Don't worry about Gibraltar too much money sloshing around there
The Spanish will carry on at the border as they've always done: sometimes you drive straight through, sometimes half hour, sometimes 4.
The people who 'run' Gibraltar won't let 'business' be disrupted too much.

For Catalonia to split from Spain would be likely be a mistake but Madrid needs to show understanding. We've seen divisive Populism here and in the US. If we have second referendum here those that voted the first time will probably go the same way but the youth vote whose future is at stake would have a chance to have their say.

It is a matter for Spain and others must not interfere. Let the election in December pass and see what happens then.

Let us simply hope that there will be no bloodshed.

It all seems a bit heavy-handed. The rumblings must have been there a long time and it would have been wiser to slowly and gently address these rather than precipitate such a confrontation. The jubilation of those on the street in Barcelona seems very naive - they must know that there is a rocky road ahead.

From the reports I saw when this latest vote was taken many Catalonians who did not wish to leave Spain refused to vote as it was an illegal vote anyway.
A few years ago the Spanish Gov gave them a referendum and the result was overwhelmingly to remain within Spain.

As I understand it, youth had a chance to vote in the referendum in exactly the same way as the rest of us. Why should they have a second chance simply because certain of them couldn't be bothered originally. 'Opportunity knocks but once', a lesson we all have to learn, sometimes to our cost. It's called being a grown up!
As for Catalonia, there is no way Madrid could ignore what was an illegal referendum. If Catalonia is allowed to go its own way without much comment, a green light is being given to other like minded states both in Spain and elsewhere. Not sure an election will solve much except to infuriate the separatists who will see it as a means to snatch away all that they believe they've gained.

This is a dangerous situation. I do hope it calms down. I fear for those young people in the streets.

How sad that you think that youngsters should only have one chance, niggly.

One chance ( aged 18 and upwards) to vote in that particular referendum, not denying ‘second chances’ for anything else in life
durhamjen so, not ‘sad’ at all.

This Catalonia situation will greatly alarm the EU, who cannot do without the money from Spain, so they are unlikely to champion any breakaway region, especially as Catalonia makes a big contribution to Spain’s finances overall, from tourism.

dj, so you're saying that young people aren't adult or responsible enough at 18 to manage to get out to vote the first time round?! My step grandson who was 20 managed to vote as he understood the seriousness of it and that it was a one off chance, he wasn't a student or intellectual, just a hard working young man making his way in the hospitality business starting right at the bottom of the ladder.

In the Scottish referendum they voted at 16.

I am sad that you think the young only deserve one vote; that is what I said, about what you said.
My middle granddaughter missed out on being able to vote just after she reached 18 because May changed the vote by having an early one.
So May is allowed to change her mind, but not youngsters who now wish they had voted?

Was that in a GE djen? She will have many more chances to vote in a GE.
I remember that I just missed out at age 21 and had to wait until mid-twenties before I could have my say all those years ago.

theconversation.com/catalonia-declares-independence-and-spain-enters-uncharted-territory-86489

If Scotland had voted for independence, do you think the UK government should have done the same as the Spanish government, and declared Scotland had no right to vote that way?

What does it matter how votes occur in the UK?

I genuinely thought the Catalan Government would not take it to a declaration but I guess it may well have been the only way to get the Madrid Government to ever accept an ' official ' referendum on Independence could take place . So in a way it has been successful for those wanting Independence but at what cost if they are successful is a case of only time telling.

Perhaps the December 21st snap election may settle things but I hope until then there is no repetition of the heavy handed approach by Rajoy , it will do nobody any good.

The question now is what will happen after the Election on December 21st if the pro Independence party of Charles Puigdemont regains the majority.?

Yes, it was in the general election, Jalima, but it's the principle I am talking about. To say that a teenager has had his or her chance and tough if s/he didn't take it seems very mealy mouthed to me, considering May can change the rules whenever she wants to.

Of course it wouldn't the referendum in Scotland was legal and the result had to be binding which ever way it went. The Catalonian one is illegal and so not binding, I thought you knew that dj!

Have you not noticed that Brexit is taking away powers from Scotland and handing them back to Westminster, niggly?
May is doing the same thing but by sleight of hand.
That's when Scotland will have its second referendum, whether you want it or not, and the kids will get their vote.

Who declared the Catalan vote to be illegal? The Spanish government who sent in their thugs to police it.

durhamjen
The Spanish had a constitutional referendum in 1978. It's all there, it's illegal.
As much as i love anything that puts a spanner in the works of the eu, it is illegal.

It is illegal and can't be recognised. If Scotland has another legal referendum and chooses to leave the UK, so be it, that's fine by me and I guess a lot of people in England feel the same. Lucky the last vote wasn't nationwide, they'd probably be gone by now, I'd certainly have voted for them to leave. I hope 16 year olds do get the vote, a!nd that they bother to turn out, it should clinch the deal.