Let's not forget Brexit

Perhaps we need an EU army for that sort of thing. Oh, silly me, that was just another vote leave lie, wasn't it?

Do you never pick up a copy of the Times or the Guardian when they are at the doctors or on a train, lemon?

Our doctors' surgery only seems to have out-of-date magazines, never today's paper.
I pick up whatever paper I fancy at any given point in time when in Waitrose.Sainsbury's caff.

or

Farms on estates are rented out to tennant farmers and expected not only to keep their families but to be a successful enterprise in every respect. Subsidies are paid to the landowner who may or may not pass some of it onto his tennant/s.

They may think that Lemon but early on in the news about their referendum there were also many Catalans being interviewed saying they did not agree with the referendum but had voted in the legal one a few years ago and did not want to leave Spain.
The EU have said they will not interfere in the internal politics of a country.

I did point that out on another thread at some point, niggly. What I haven't established is whether the EU should be responsible for the tenant farmers benefitting from the subsidies or whether it's something that the government should do something about. A lot of tenant farmers do struggle terribly.

In which case those Catalans are probably as misguided in their understanding of the EU as many UK Leavers appear to be. It is not up to the EU to sort out the internal politics of a sovereign nation.

The EU is damned for purportedly wanting to erode national sovereignty and damned for not interfering in the affairs of a sovereign nation. It's utterly illogical.

Catalonian independence would not break up the EU. Spain would still be a member. Catalonia would have to apply to join (from what I've read they don't actually want to leave the EU).

Of course, declaring unilateral independence immediately brings into question the matter of their trading relationship with the EU, should the EU recognise them as a separate nation (which it hasn't) as, until they formally joined the EU they would not be able to trade with them under their current arrangements unless the EU agreed to continue them. It could be a truly Hard Catalexit....

What I haven't established is whether the EU should be responsible for the tenant farmers benefitting from the subsidies or whether it's something that the government should do something about.

I don't think that anyone has actually established that the EU subsidy which is received by the sqillionaire landowners isn't passed to the tenant farmers. So far on this forum it's just been a lot of unevidenced shouting about greedy rich people.

MaizieD no idea why you think Leavers are misguided in their understanding of the EU but the Catalan people who appeared on tv saying that the EU would step in and help them no doubt are.

MaizieD no idea why you think Leavers are misguided in their understanding of the EU

It's alright, lemon, I didn't seriously think you would have any idea.

Why so sarky all the time?

Interesting thread from twitter about the effect of Brexit on the UK's foreign relations and policy

Let’s have a look at foreign policy & Brexit. How will the new “Global Britain” fare as a foreign policy power on its own once more? /1

tttthreads.com/thread/924176857720872960

lemong:
'MaizieD no idea why you think Leavers are misguided in their understanding of the EU but the Catalan people who appeared on tv saying that the EU would step in and help them no doubt are.' .. fact is, the GVT has done many studies of how Brexit will impact on the UK, jobs, financial services, and many many more. I do wonder why they are refusing to publish them.

As for UK retirees who live abroad, they are still used as pawns, and the effect will be horrendous. Falling Pound, loss of reciprocal health care, and possible loss of residence permits - would result in mass return to UK- putting hug3e pressure on housing, social care and the NHS.

www.facebook.com/FullEnglishBrexit/videos/848915691949099/

lemong
Now you know

fact is, the GVT has done many studies of how Brexit will impact on the UK, jobs, financial services, and many many more.

Studies which the government refuses to release into the public domain and, shockingly, it appears that the government ministers most closely involved with Brexit have read only the Executive Summaries; not the full reports.

twitter.com/SeemaMalhotra1/status/923547604767698944

Though the Exec. Summaries must have been pretty bad for the government to be refusing to let anyone see them...

petra, I do wonder- did you watch the link above about the effect of the current situation on UK expats in the EU? If you did, I'd hope it would release a little empathy.

But yes, I can hear the voices 'ahaha - no-one forced them to move abroad, did they? To their Châteaux in Dordogneshire, living the life, sipping Bordeaux wines' ...

and fair enough, in a way. Fact is, if those people, having spent their savings and pension on buying and renovating a house, in areas where houses were cheap- because too far away from the towns where work and 'culture', etc, is- and where the French want to live - meaning those houses are now un-saleable as the expat market is disappearing (I have several friends who have been trying to seel wonderful houses at knockdown prices (at a loss actually) in vain- then what? If they are left with no choice but to put the key under the matt and return pennyless- it will be VERY unpleasant for them indeed- and some of you can say 'ahahahah serves them well for leaving in the first place'.

And fair enough - perhaps, even if extremely unking and totally lacking in empathy. The point is though, is that if 1000s have to return from Spain, France, Italy, etc, all over the EU- as they lose reciprocal healthcare and with pensions having lost 50+ of their value due to falling £ - that will impact the UK at the worst possible time- as they will need housing, social care and increasing health care and even OAP residential care-as those people are now 10, 20+ years older than they were when they left on retirement. So yes Petra - now you know.

Just sat through the links MaisieD posted above (thank you)

there are 490.000 UK retirees with reciprocal healthcare in the EU (official) and it is estimated up to 900.000 - so imagine what would happen to the UK (even if you don't care at all about the fate of those individuals) even if 10 or 20% had to return and require NHS, housing, social care, etc, etc. If some have no empathy whatsoever for their fate, fair enough, I suppose.

Over a million UK living in EU. That's a lot of elderly people to add to the problems of the NHS.
I hope Hunt and May are ready for it.
I do know they are not all elderly, by the way, but the ones I know are now retired abroad.

Somebody suggested they are pretending not to have read the reports because they don't want to be blamed when things go wrong.
Doesn't wash, does it? Even school kids know they have to do their homework.

Someone else suggested that it was misconduct in public office. I'd like to see someone run with that.

Petra ? Lemong is fine with me, sounds a bit French.

I still don’t see the connection between Leavers being misguided about the EU, misguided about what exactly?
Also, which Leavers? There are over 17 million of us, so you can hardly expect us all to be the same, and the Catalan people who hoped that the EU would step in diplomatically to save them from the wrath of the Spanish Government.
There was always going to be a mass of things to sort out before we left the EU, but that doesn’t mean it will never be sorted out.

lemonG - gettig back to the subject I raised specifically, about the rights of the half a million UK retirees abroad- who may well have to return to UK in droves, either because of loss of reciprocal healthcare, massive loss of income due to low £, or even loss of residents' permit if the UK does not guarantee right to stay to EU citizens in UK - I'd be so grateful for your suggestions as to how those issues could be resolved- so the UK's NHS, social care and housing, are not overwhelmed: Thanks - it would be of huge relief to all those here on GN who are in that awful situation and very stressed about it.

I agree that empathy for others in need cannot be enforced or taught- but perhaps people should listen to the facts. And experts who have studied the issues for many many years, like Prof Douga of Liverpool Uni, the best expert in EU Law there is. Or Carney, and other financial experts.

I am glad my second knee replacement will be done by an expert. Our plumber is very nice, and our carpenter too- but even so.

New Europeans Christmas cards.

jura2
Would that be Mark Carney who said that the uk would go into recession if we voted to leave. Still waiting.
I bear no responsibility for choices that people make.

jura2 while having sympathy for all UK citizens living in EU countries, and also EU citizens living here who want things to be resolved so that they know where they stand,
I and presumably 17 million others, could not allow that to sway their vote when thinking what is the best thing overall for the future of the UK and UK citizens who do live here.
The will seems to be there, both with our Government and the EU, to resolve things, but yes, I agree, the sooner they come to an arrangement on the rights of all those people the better.