Let's not forget Brexit

welshwife there were Catalans on tv saying that the EU would not stand by and allow Spain to harm them.

www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10204257383992387&set=gm.1748216661878260&type=3

Here is david Davis making sense- prior to the vote.

BTW just learnt that Mr May owns almost 2% of Monsanto- poisoned conflict of interest (as well as many tax avoiding firms). At what point will people realise that new EU rules on tax avoidance are the key here.

Well, that’s super for you jura2 but do remember that posters change name for all sorts of reasons.
Day6 has been around for quite a while though.

Day6 I am not sure if we have 'met' before. After such a long absence, there are so many new names- perhaps many having yet again changed their name for the unpteenth time, for whatever reason. I am proud of having come back without hiding ...

*”My observation? It is really no wonder millions of us voted to leave when faced with this continual barrage of "You have made the wrong decision, you know nothing, you're stupid!" comments from Remainers*”
This phrase sprung out of me when reading the above. Does this make sense? Did people vote to leave because of a barrage of such criticism? Surely that would have come after the vote? Can you criticise someone for voting a certain way before they have done so? Would you vote a certain way because you had been criticised for doing so before you’d voted? Surely you vote a certain way because you believe for whatever reason it’s the right thing to do, not because you have been criticised for doing it. Seems a bit illogical.
I don’t recall reading these comments on here anyway - perhaps the author could direct us. I think it’s maybe putting words into others’ mouths is the order of the day.

The Catalan dispute is a purely Spanish problem - nothing to do with the EU. They Catalan Govt are aware they will not be eligible to join the EU - and unless anyone has come forward today - no other country has recognised the referendum result and the resulting Independent declaration.
What is the point of getting worked up about any of it(Catalan etc) - we can do nothing about it and it will not directly affect the UK . Scotland and Ireland are a different kettle of fish and would be accepted by the EU. I quite understand NI and Eire not wanting a hard border back with the possibility of the 'troubles' starting up again. The whole island went through terrible years. However I would prefer not to see the breakup of the United Kingdom.

I didn't demean them for lack of reading skills. I said they wouldn't want to read a letter that long, not that they couldn't.

By the way, the EU 27 are definitely moving away from the idea of leaving the EU, according to the information I read.
Not in the DM, I must admit.

I hope the Catalans don’t put their hopes in the EU to protect them from Spain.

There are hundreds of Gransnetters, and most refuse to get drawn in to any arguments about Leaving the EU, no matter how they voted, so the vociferous ones are a handful who will keep going on ( and on) as if they think they can change minds.
I do wonder if anyone actually thinks that all the MPs, doctors, dentists, business people etc who voted to Leave are all thick and read only the Daily Star, Sun, Daily Mail.
Still.....if it makes them happy.

You sound calm regarding fractured EU countries Welshwife.

Juncker doesn't.

The beginning of the end for the EU?

"Since 1999, more progressive European nations have been trying to limit the amount of public money a farmer can capture under the common agricultural policy. It looked as if, this year, they might at last succeed. But throughout the negotiations that ended last week, two governments in particular resisted: those resolute champions of the free market, Germany and the UK. Thanks to their lobbying, any decision has yet again been deferred."

I don't see how you can blame the EU for this. They wanted the system changed. It was the UK and German governments that didn't.
That's from a George Monbiot article.

DJ I spent a lot of time judging people by their reading ability. It was part of my job.

Likewise. The difference is, I don't demean people for lack of reading skills.

You do. See above.

The Basques decided about a year ago to stop looking for independence - not enough support. When all of the Catalans voted in a regulated referendum a few years ago the vote was to remain within Spain.

Ireland Scotland have more to do with the U.K leaving the EU as both regions wish to remain within it.

Do you actually like anybody, Day6?

Gina Miller does not want a vote for herself; she wants it for the house of commons.
You can't complain about the unelected EU having the final say and at the same time say you don't want our MPs having the final say. That's all Gina Miller wants.

"I presume those millionaires pass the subsidies on to the farmers who work for them - otherwise nobody would work for them. Perhaps any farmers on here will let us know."

Billionaire landowners DJ.

Yes, those people owning vast swathes of Britain, well known for paying farm workers/labourers, the ones who get their hands dirty, megabucks in wages.....

Defend the indefensible, why don't you?

Did you see the link I posted about the possibility of Northern Ireland breaking away from the UK and joining a united Ireland?
60% of those asked want it if we get Brexit with no deal.

Totally irrespective of Brexit - do you believe Parliamentary Democracy is important for the UK nor not- and if the answer is yes, how can 'getting back control' whilst losing Parliamentary Democracy, is not shooting yourself in the foot, or worse?

And do you believe that Universities teaching Law, and EU Law in particular- should be allowed to teach facts, or be told by the GVT what to teach- Stasi, USSR or North Korean style?

The left you say? Why? I belong to 2 UK parties, the Greens and the Lib Dems. Talk about stereotypes.

DJ If nothing else, at least we will have warned the other EU 27 not to embark on the same path.

Hmm. You think? Just as Catalonions decide to break with the Spanish government.

Junker warns there is 'No room for other fractures'.

"The shock decision to declare independence poses potentially the greatest threat to the EU's unity since Brexit, and is likely to fuel support for separatist movements in Ireland, Scotland and the Basque Country."

I said for your average DM reader, not all DM readers.
It's very long for a letter in any paper let alone the DM.

I spent a lot of time judging people by their reading ability. It was part of my job.

I presume those millionaires pass the subsidies on to the farmers who work for them - otherwise nobody would work for them. Perhaps any farmers on here will let us know.

By the way, I can't recall mentioning shooting themselves in the foot.

Hey all. Well, look at this, and DJ and Jura talk about people shooting themselves in the foot.

These left wing liberals sneering again. They love to put down others. DJ assumes opposition read the DM and are hard of thinking, unable to read long articles. Nice.

Tut tut...DJ. Do really assess people by their reading ability? That's not very nice, is it. How judgemental and blinkered.

Two posts above - one assuming anyone who doesn't share their views is automatically a Daily Mail reader and has limited interest in lengthy articles. (That is a clichéd, hackneyed phrase wheeled out as the usual term of derision by the left, even if the people they are addressing wouldn't use the DM as loo roll, but hey ho.)

A bit of originality would be nice but let's not hold our breath.

The second, a deliberate, derisory misspelling of a poster's name and the inference that yet another article is too challenging for someone not sharing their views on the EU.

My observation? It is really no wonder millions of us voted to leave when faced with this continual barrage of "You have made the wrong decision, you know nothing, you're stupid!" comments from Remainers.

Do they feel their continual ridiculing of those who voted to leave the EU is going to get them the vote THEY wanted?

I do feel however that Leavers generally don't stand up to be counted. Perhaps they too see the continual put-downs but believe the Remainers will eventually run out of steam, knowing they can scream and stamp their feet and get as worked up as they like, but they cannot overthrow democracy.

Very few of us challenge them. Perhaps letting them converse with each other on platforms such as this, and being able to throw around patronising remarks about people they assume aren't as clever as they are is the bit of therapy they need. Even privately educated and wealthy "I'll pay to get my way" Gina Miller has accepted we are leaving the EU but she wants to have a say in the deal. I wonder why?

The wealthy care more about the EU than those without money having to shut up and put up about everything thrown at them. They have spoken and the liberal and wealthy elite hate it.

As I have said, how the left can support the EU given it gives subsidies to billionaire farmers and landowners? One in five receiving these subsidies - taxpayers money - is a billionaire.

"So the likelihood is that, one way or another, understanding will grow on both sides of the Channel next year that we’re sailing towards a vote of the British parliament with the potential utterly to derail Brexit. All this will be academic, however, if public opinion shows no sign of shifting decisively from where it was when Leave won the referendum. If, as the shape of our draft Brexit deal emerges, parliament thinks the British people still want to leave, then neither Lords nor Commons will dare kick over the traces, and nor (I’d argue) should they: democracies have a right to self-harm."

From what I have been reading, public opinion has shifted, and the more comes out about how useless the government is at negotiating a deal, the more it shifts towards us staying in the EU.
If nothing else, at least we will have warned the other EU 27 not to embark on the same path.

I short- 'getting back control' by getting rid of the historic and 100% British Parliamentary Democracy = shooting yourself in both feet.

Ah well ....

Perhaps this one too- written by a Tory who is probably considering jumping ship at this stage- and the answer to Lemong's OP:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/mps-and-the-eu-can-together-derail-brexit-krqt6rml0?shareToken=3d35c1b454d1fd083e0a692c6be5cae9

That's brilliant, Jura, but possibly a bit long for your average DM reader?