Why are we leaving?

The powerful behind the Leave campaign will not suffer too much in the slump that would undoubtedly follow hard brexit. They are rich. The rich are pretty good at stashing their wealth in tax havens. Their children don't go to state schools and they can pay for private health care. And their ultimate aim is to turn the UK into a low regulation, low wage, low tax economy. This will take a while but they will weather the storm. By low regulation they mean things like stripping back employment rights and environmental standards. We will still have to follow all the EU rules about product specifications because we could not export to the EU without them. By most people's standards this evil project will involve trashing the country we know including the NHS. There is absolutely nothing to look forward to.

Oh gilly there are thousands of small businesses out there who see their work place as a small family and clearly take less from the business than they could in order to keep their staff.

I have seen that over and over again.

It is a conundrum I know, but taking the work and ensuring employment for your staff has a lot to be said for it.

My DH are struggling with our own consciences as we have been asked to assist in the move which will undoubtedly result in UK job losses. We need the work but at what cost to others ? If we don't do it someone else will. As I have said a million times before we definitely weren't cut out for being in business as a true business mind wouldn't give it a second thought .

gilly businesses are beyond worried about Brexit. I have friends who are in close contact with the business world and some like your friends are actively pursuing moving Europe.

This means jobs by the thousands. Does any brexiter care?

Brexit and anti capitalism all rolled up in one disasterous package.

According to MN Charles Grant has tweeted that May has given in to almost everything relating to immigrants, including consulting with the ECJ.

That’s only taken 9months -at this rate we will have left by the next century.

It is very apparent from the manufacturing forums I am a member of that the bigger NE business leaders are extremely worried. The company to which I referrred earlier ( a house hold name) is already taking steps to protect its interests in Europe by moving production lines out of the UK . I predict that many others will follow very soon. As you say MazieD we can't run the UK on Whisky, jam, pigs ears and fresh air .
( well it's still nice and fresh here on the NE coast anyway).

Good to know that labour are firmly rejecting a no deal.

They are looking for significant improvement in the Repeal Bill in order to ensure workers rights, and environmental standards.

They will unilaterally ensure immigrants rights.

They will seek to become strong partners with the EU, nd continue to belong to all the various agencies.

They argue that Mays silly belligerency has left this government in the worse possible position in the negotiations.

gillybob at 9.11 this morning

We should brace ourselves for a massive exist of what is left of our manufacturing.

Of course, Leavers will be prepared for this as Patrick Minford, the economist who led the 'Economists for Leave' team (the only set of economists who predicted that the UK would thrive economically post- Brexit) did say that we were likely to lose the rest of our manufacturing base post Brexit. So, no surprise there. I don't recall quite what we were going to replace it with.

Perhaps Leavers who read all the articles very carefully and weighed up the pros and cons (which means all of you, according to your posts) can help us out here. What are we going to trade in once manufacturing is gone?

Apart from whisky, special jam and pigs' ears, of course..

Further to Brussels’s deciding to step up talks with labour. It is clear that the commission is not the body being mean, as the Tories would have us believe, but the individual E27 countries. One ambassador said “its not our job to save the Tory party”

Exactly Mamie Jen to be legally living you need to be TAX registered in your country of domicile. For most Brits it is beneficial to do so as Many EU countries have lower tax bands - but those Brits receiving Govt pensions - teachers NHS workers etc -- still pay tax at source in UK PLUS tax in their country of actual abode!
You can then also vote in EU elections and Local ones where you live - and certain UK ones if you are under 15 years away.
Spain has I believe free health care similar to UK- France does not - Brits in France need top up care and you cannot get a French health card unless you are tax registered etc.
All very complicated for many people. Those with simply 'holiday homes' will not be so affected as those with actual 'homes' in EU.

GrannyGranby we should perhaps take heart that Labour Party membership is growing while the parties of the right are not doing so well. Tories fretting that they only have 100k members and are struggling to connect with the young. UKIP in disarray and before long they will have more MEPs than members.

That's why my brother registered in Spain, Mamie. He must have been there for over twenty years.
This year he came for his 70th birthday and said that he couldn't see himself coming to the UK again.

If you live in a country for more than 180 days a year, you are obliged to register with the tax authorities and be taxed in that country. That is the law according to the taxation treaties which are independent of the EU.
You do not normally have to register as a resident at the moment because the UK is part of the EU. When the UK leaves the EU that will change.
We chose to register formally this year and had to provide proof of residence, tax returns, health cover and income for five years minimum (we have lived in France for twelve years).
I suspect some people may find themselves in a spot of bother.

Bambam, I do know what I am talking about as my brother has lived in Spain since he left the army.
But do carry on being your usual nasty self.

I agree with everything you say, grannygranby.
May is getting worried as she keeps repeating that she wants EU citizens to stay. She didn't when she was home secretary and had signs on the side of vans telling them to go home.
The nasty underside comes from the top down.

Sorry to labour the point about Bambam's friend in Spain
1) I asked 'did she vote Leave, by any chance?' because in my experience it's usually Leave voters who are unbothered by, or don't see any, adverse consequences from Brexit
2) I haven't said a word about her being asked to leave Spain, can't think where Bb got that notion from
3) This 'friend' is not typical of the UK nationals living in the EU who are worried about their future post Brexit. I'm talking here of UK nationals who live permanently in the EU because of marriage, jobs etc.

So really, Bb's original post proposing that Brexit wouldn't cause EU nationals in the UK and UK nationals in the EU any problems relied on a Brit not actually permanently resident on the EU and a couple in the UK who aren't from the EU at all.

And people wonder why Remainers get cross when Leavers don't appear to have understood the problems

I agree whitewave. Brexit has revealed a nasty undeside to the British character which is normally kept in check by our parliamentary democracy. The EU has some faults but nothing like those of the vain, self serving, callous Farage, Johnson and Rees Mogg.
Let's hope the fairer kinder Bristish character will win through.
As Pollaigh said we are only in this dreadful position through lazy lack of foresight. Cameron didn't imagine the British people would really vote to Leave as it makes no sense to thinking people - but he underestimated the perfidy of Leavers and their false promises. And yes we could have had caps on immigration in EU like most other countries ensuring we only took workers we needed rather than no limits at all - but no we went for the cheap labour option accross the board.
We would lose such valuable people in care homes, in hospitals, nursing, teaching. I feel so ashamed at the treatment they have received. I'm sorry ck33 that you have experienced unpleasantness. I have many friends who also have been subjected to hate completely out of the blue.
But I for one am not giving up the fight to stay in the EU. Freedom of movement, protection for our climate, animal welfare, workers rights, womens rights. None of them secure in the race to the bottom the UK will face in the unprotected world of global greed. And who would want a special relationship with Donald Trump? We will fight to stay in. We won't have such a good deal as we had before but we will stay in.

Hi Bambam, sorry forgot what I was going to say.

We have just learned that one of out biggest customers is moving it's 2 most productive lines out of the UK next year. This will undoubtedly mean an extremely paired down workforce and a massive loss to their first and second tier suppliers too. I always knew this would happen if the LEAVE vote won. We should brace ourselves for a massive exist of what is left of our manufacturing.

None of my English friends living in Spain for some years have residency. They all pay property taxes but all have private medical insurance. They are hardly hiding themselves as they all have English reg cars on their property.

There are many I know who are residents and have been for numerous years.
My original comment to Maisie was only that my friend lived in Spain and had property there and she was not concerned about having to leave after Brexit.
It was Maisie who went down the road of "i bet she voted to leave"
I was not even talking about that.
When I replied that she had actually voted Remain, Maisie said she would be very interested to know how she managed to vote if she had lived there 30 years.
I was just making a statement about my friend not being concerned about having to leave Spain after Brexit.
I hadn't expected an interrogation about her life.
You people need to come down off your "high horses".

Yes I know Welshwife! She dosn,t need to declare residency as she comes back to the Uk a couple of times a year.
You could actually just go over the border to Portugal for a day to not have to declare residency if you wanted to.
All the expats know the rules, they live within them.

Assume your friend is still registered as living in UK then Bambam despite living in Spain most of the time. She is in a different position to those who actually live in anEU country and pay taxes there.
You are supposed to declare residency in the country you live more than six months of the year. That does have tax and healthcare implications depending on the countries involved.

I reckon if one of the main parties decided to quite Brexit in its manifesto, the other would follow it in a flash as it’s such a poison chalice and utterly impossibly difficult no one really wants to go near it, which is also the reason May is still in her job as who in their right mind would take it in right now, except loathsome Leadsome who is so dim she would simply be a puppet for the loons.

I can't understand why the homeless beggars mostly from Romania have not been deported by now.