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Why are we leaving?

(389 Posts)
yggdrasil Thu 05-Oct-17 08:49:38

This vid says a lot. Especially why the EU finds our government's attitude so incomprehensible

(it is about 8 mins long)

whitewave Thu 05-Oct-17 08:52:00

If we cancelled Brexit tomorrow, I reckon our economy would rocket away. What utter fools we are.

petra Thu 05-Oct-17 09:12:05

I watched the video and read the comments.
The best one was " If the eu is so great, why do you need them (us) are you going to fall apart without them (us) so let them go"
The perso does say they aren't European, so they obviously don't understand the money grab, because, let's be honest, that's what it's all about.

Welshwife Thu 05-Oct-17 10:44:57

I thought it was about stopping squabbling and wars within the bloc - or that at least was how it started. I also think that idea where as with more equality between nations - total equality would probably never be possible - there would be less strife.
As for a money grab - each state pays in the same percentage of GDP and receives grants for needy areas. When it came to the UK we had a rebate on our contribution so a smaller percentage of UK GDP went into the EU coffers than other nations.

Luckygirl Thu 05-Oct-17 10:50:51

It started as an economic community rather than an end to war project, and slowly morphed into an all-encompassing power-crazy inefficient money pit of an organisation. All attempts by British PMs and diplomats to halt the federalist aims failed dismally. No wonder people got fed up.

Macron has got it right I think - he says the EU needs to reform, and that if it had done so the UK would not be on the way out.

Welshwife Thu 05-Oct-17 11:06:01

Churchill had the original idea towards the end of the last European war - for hundreds of years Europsan countries were at war with each other - being in a 'club ' together was thought would help the situation - and boy hasn't that been successful.
Of course it could do with an overhaul - many leaders are agreed with that and were saying before Macron. Better to be on the inside with a voice in the debate than an inlooker who will not benefit from any reforms

lemongrove Thu 05-Oct-17 11:15:21

Exactly Luckygirl it was the EEC European Economic Community, nothing to do with wars, which is what the UN and NATO are there for.
If it hadn’t morphed into the all emcompassing inefficient money pit with federalist aims, then yes, we would still be in it.

Luckygirl Thu 05-Oct-17 11:33:45

We need to ask why it is so very hard to reform - financial vested interests of course. They are difficult enough to control at a national level (or indeed local council level!), let alone a pan-national level.

radicalnan Thu 05-Oct-17 11:43:29

Why do people keep on about money, you cannot put a price on freedom. OK the economy may fluctuate a bit but that won't be just EU related there are all sorts of things in the pipeline.

Who wants an EU army.....with the French, sounds like a Monty Python sketch, more needy immigrants, no thanks, more rules about what traditional remedies we can use, I think I'll pass on that one. Whatever benefits it extends and I am not convinced there are any, we have the internet now, we can speak instantly to each other, translate mesages, transmit forms, we travel far more cheaply than when we went in, I can't wait to leave.

Cosafina Thu 05-Oct-17 11:52:42

I'm speechless - this just shows that it all depends on how you spin it. But I've always said we need to be in it to reform it. Until the referendum I considered us one of the Big Three: German, France and the UK.
When we go back in (and we will go back in, maybe not in my lifetime, but eventually), we'll just be an also-ran and can forget all the special concessions the EU has made to us over the years.
I maintain that we need another vote, to see if we agree to the deal on the table. If the Brexiteers are so sure that it's the "will of the people" they shouldn't be afraid of this vote. But surely we need to be absolutely certain that it IS the will of the people? As whitewave says, our economy would take off again if we cancelled the disastrous Brexit

ck33 Thu 05-Oct-17 12:01:57

I am devastated. Was feeling one of yours until last year. Now I can t wait to spend more time in France, where I came from 43 years ago. I taught UK children and students for 30 years. My children are British and feel personally hurt. My husband does not feel the UK is his country anymore. My grand fathers who fought in the 2 world wars would be so sad. The UK is part of Europe. What a mess .

petra Thu 05-Oct-17 12:10:37

Why are we leaving
Because until the referendum came along many people had no way to control what the government did in terms of the eu, so politicians just did what made them and their rich friends happy, until we got our voice.

Luckygirl Thu 05-Oct-17 12:23:08

Unfortunately "being in it to reform it" simply did not work. Heaven knows people tried hard enough. In the end you have to admit defeat.

I am not averse to a vote on the deal that is struck - at least we would have something positive to vote for or against.

mostlyharmless Thu 05-Oct-17 12:48:04

Very sad for you ck33.

mostlyharmless Thu 05-Oct-17 12:50:38

We are all Europeans. It's terrible that we are leaving and particularly for young people. The UK will take years to recover financially.

leeds22 Thu 05-Oct-17 13:09:00

I'm a remainer and hate the idea of Brexit. But ... when I read about the 'sweetheart' deals Luxembourg struck with Amazon and other major companies to reduce their tax bills, when Juncker was their prime minister, it does make me question the financial set ups within the EU.

lemongrove Thu 05-Oct-17 13:53:03

We are still part of Europe, even when we leave the EU.
We will like France Italy and Germany etc just as we do now,
But simply want our own politicians to be accountable to us, in a way that the EU can never be, as Petra and others say.

lemongrove Thu 05-Oct-17 13:55:08

If France held a referendum and the citizens wanted out of the EU,I would suppose it was for those same reasons, and not, childishly because ‘they didn’t like us any more’.

sarahellenwhitney Thu 05-Oct-17 13:56:45

Luckygirl and Radicalnan.So in agreement with you
We are or were? 'Great' Britain. Looked up to by the rest of the world.Were we not doing nicely thank you before we became shackled to what is now nothing more than an all encompassing 'dads army' organisation.
How can so many be brainwashed into believing our future lies as members of the EU
As much as we need a boil on our rear end.

Grampie Thu 05-Oct-17 14:13:17

The U.K. will remain part of Europe. Long term EU immigrants, like ck33, can apply for British citizenship and retain their EU citizenship.

Us Brits should also have the option to retain our EU citizenship.

icanhandthemback Thu 05-Oct-17 14:17:40

I quite agree lemongrove, I don't dislike Europeans, I do dislike lazy Brits but more than anything, I hate being ruled by an undemocratic process and unelected body . It is almost impossible for all countries to agree things so we end up with an expensive, lumbering machine that doesn't serve the people properly. My feelings towards immigration are that in order to protect everybody who lives in Britain, no matter what colour, nationality or creed, we need to ensure that we can house them, give free medical care and a good education. We haven't been able to do that properly since we opened up the borders to so many countries. Let's welcome immigrants but make it so we can do them the justice they deserve rather than have them selling the Big Issue and facing homelessness.

GracesGranMK2 Thu 05-Oct-17 14:26:48

The perso does say they aren't European, so they obviously don't understand the money grab, because, let's be honest, that's what it's all about.

What happens when you realise this is simply not true I wonder - and what will you have done to the half of the country who didn't want what you will have inflicted on them.

ck33 Thu 05-Oct-17 14:32:34

Europe is a lot more than a financial institution and it is a long term project. The EU27 understand it and that is why they (or most of them) are sticking with it warts and all. The UK has only ever considered it in terms of the financial benefit it could get from it. The Brexit camp tried to put the debate on a less pragmatic level by mentioning the regaining of "control" but I find that really odd as nobody seem to be able to say how the EU limit their rights and freedom ....

Day6 Thu 05-Oct-17 14:59:14

"The UK will take years to recover financially."

Ha ha ha ha....

Another Remainer who can predict the future. Crystal balls again.

How do you know? You DON'T know. None of us knows what the future holds, economically, politically, personally etc, etc, etc, etc.

We can make predictions, just as we try to predict winning lottery numbers.

Some people seem to want the UK to be weaker after Brexit when it could in fact be the best thing we have ever done. Who knows?

I will have no truck with such awful, anti-UK doom mongers, bitter Remainers who spread such negative messages without any concrete proof, insight or knowledge. Even the economists can only predict trends and they often get it wrong. We are leaving and I for one hope for the best for the UK and prefer to read positive forecasts.

Many have predicted the collapse of the EU. All is not well in that institution either. Will it last? Who knows?

libra10 Thu 05-Oct-17 15:03:09

Wide-ranging and diverse viewpoints given above make this an excellent thread.

As the initial EU model has changed so much since its initial conception, especially Junker's ideas of increased federalism, EU Army and tax systems, I feel this is not for us!

The UK consists of small islands, and we're massively over-populated as it is. How many more people can we allow in when our infrastructure, housing, NHS and schooling are no longer adequate for our own needs?