When does banter become harassment?

Is drinking red wine a crime now? ?

maryeliza you are getting a bit hot under the collar.

POGS as all the kissy kissy stuff is done by Corbyn, then the answer from some will always be ‘ oh, that’s different’ !
But is it? He leans in and kisses women all the time, work colleagues included. Perhaps he will cut it out now.

It’s starting to come out about Fallon - regularly drank two bottles of red at one sitting, called another woman journalist a ‘slut’. And I cannot believe the some posters simply cannot see that sexual assaults and sexual harassment ,although different, are both serious in different ways. Would the same people say that for example racist physical attacks such as the murder of Stephen Lawrence were dreadful but a bit of racist name calling wasn’t anything to get upset about? Finding inappropriate comments and touching unacceptable does NOT trivialise sexual abuse. The situation is far more nuanced than that unlike some posts on here.

Well it’s my well considered opinion - I make the judgement that a wolf whistle making some ones day is risible. I don’t have to be tolerant about other people’s acceptance of behaviour that is regarded as unacceptable by any decent standards. How dare any man think he can behave like that to a random woman?

I think you'll find it wasn't just touching someone's knee that caused Fallon to quit.

their behaviour not there

I agree totally with you vampire queen. I think some women don't seem to have the capacity to deal with some inappropriate situations. I've 2 daughters and as they were growing up we discussed different scenarios. I think I this gave them the tools to handle difficult situations if they arised. I'm 67 and from 18 I worked in totally male environments. If someone said anything inappropriate I normally managed to stop it there just by giving them a look. If that didn't work I made it very clear that there behaviour wasn't acceptable. Any inappropriate touch was dealt with a push and with a very loud get off me. I had no hesitation in going to my male bosses if necessary, and they always supported me. Having said that I can't see any problem with a wolf whistle as appreciation and I could always verbally belittle any man who was inappropriate. I think it's pathetic when you get some woman saying she was traumatised because a man touched her knee. It seeks to trivialise genuine abuses. A world of difference between an isolated case of a crass touch or comment and systematic use of power and abuse.

I find that sort of attitude incredibly judgmental and intolerant.

It is rude to decide how someone else should feel or think.

Not every women is bothered about being found attractive for one thing but even if a compliment is welcome, for some women they might prefer a different form of delivery. The idea of it making someone’s day is risible

Surely there is a place for all the things you mention maryeliza and for being pleased to be found attractive? Where has all the fun gone?

A wolf whistle making your day? What made my day was going to work, doing a good job, making a difference, being well regarded and successful - nothing to do with some random ill mannered yob thinking he could make a comment on my physical appearance by making a stupid noise quite rightly described by reference to animal behaviour. No wonder some men think they can treat women so disrespectfully when some women say that a wolf whistle makes their day.

Swanny says it all.

I was a child of the 60s. Many's the senior manager was too familiar in language and attitude, id have been 18/19. One particularly odious one took every opportunity to squeeze himself past me closely. Eventually i stood on his beautifully polished hand made leather shoe and grinded my foot heavily. Oh Sorry !! Not much space here !!

Next time I did the same thing and he got the message.

As for a Wolfwhistle, I always took it as the compliment it was meant to be. Made my day.

You’re right of course Swanny. There is nothing like equality yet. It was a flippant remark. I’m just so disappointed that so many women posting here seem to think there is some sort of unnecessary fuss being made and that people should “toughen up”. This was the attitude in my youth and I can’t believe it’s still endorsed.
If you saw my earlier post you’d see that I was calling for respect, of everyone, just as you are.

NotSpaghetti It makes me wonder what the fight for equality was for. What do you mean WAS for? The fight for equality is ongoing - whether between male/female, over 50/under 50, native born/immigrant, able bodied/disabled, born with a silver spoon/ into poverty, etc etc etc ... there will NEVER be total equality among humans or any other species. The question surely must be how we deal with discomfort in any situation in order to make it acceptable for all. The answer is to be aware of and to respect each other's feelings. We are all different thank goodness and, while there are certain guidelines to acceptable behaviour, there will always be those who want to push the boundaries and those who just don't understand what they are, because they are constantly changing.

I didn't say bosses, and neither did you in your original question.

What was ridiculous was bringing kissing on the cheek into this discussion - as Not said, talk about minimising and colluding not to mention trying to derail.

durhamjen you answered the question and your answer is kissing on the cheek is fine.

As you ask a question in return,

In all honestly I have neither kissed on the cheek any of my bosses nor have they kissed me on the cheek.

Having read the whole thread I find it deeply depressing that in 2017 so many are still minimising and colluding.
It makes me wonder what the fight for equality was for.

Don't you kiss people on the cheek, POGS?
If people kiss me on the cheek, I kiss them back.
I don't see any problem with it if it is done openly in a spirit of friendship.
That is not what this is about.
I presume you are talking about Corbyn doing it?
He also puts his arm around distressed people.
I don't think anyone sees it as sexual.

Maryeliza

'theridiculous post trying to make a point about kisses on the cheek.'

At least you answered the question.

You obviously find kissing on the cheek acceptable and have no problem with it.

'Have any of the women complained, POGS?
Have any of them seen it as harassment?'

No idea but I do know Julia Hartley Brewer did not complain nor saw her experience as harassment but that hasn't been taken into account it would appear.

It is a genuine question I note you did not answer.

I have not said I find it harassment. I have raised the question because some posters seem to find what constitutes professionalism, work place ettiquette, sexual harassment in varying forms.

So it is a fair question to ask is repeatedly 'kissing women on the cheek' deemed as OK , how is the bar is set so high for one thing and not another.

Absolutely brilliant article and sums up so articulately some of the appalling attitudes being aired on GN - viz theridiculous post trying to make a point about kisses on the cheek.

Have any of the women complained, POGS?
Have any of them seen it as harassment?