When does banter become harassment?

I worked in a very male environment, horse racing, for years. I loved the banter and it was often rude and suggestive but I learnt to answer back and never felt threatened, it was all part of the work. My boss was terribly suggestive but I always knew if I had had any real problems with the lads he would have strung them up, the respect was always there and it was the best job in the world,

I agree with you vampire
I am an old woman now and what we experienced so many years ago did not seem at all like sexual or any other form of harassment.
I think if we didn't like what was said we avoided that person in future and would warn others, the men soon got to be recognised. A compliment , sincerely made was taken for what it was, a well meant compliment, nothing more.
I think it made us more aware and stronger and helped us deal with life.
I am not talking about sexual assault or rape of course, that is a dreadful thing.

I couldn't agree more!

In my time I've made a few faux pas most of which have been forgotten about. They become harassment when you persist especially after being told your attentions are not welcome.

Touching inappropriately could be taken as harassment or assault. Brushing against someone can be accidental. It all depends on circumstance, persistence and intent. If you are told to stop and you do stop/apologize it should be forgotten about.

Forcing yourself on someone is assault, claiming to misread signals is rarely any sort of excuse.

For people with power or influence to take advantage of their position to coerce another sexually is doubly wrong. But again if rebuffed and the perpetrator stops and apologizes it should be let go. If however the incident can be shown to harm the career of the person being "harassed" that is wrong.

I suppose the safest bet is to say nothing at all regarding appearance etc, unless one is very, very sure it can't be misconstrued.

I have to add, also, there is no need to put a hand on a colleague, or an arm around them. I have never felt the need to, and again, it could so easily be turned into something that was never intended.

Well men should learn and perhaps be taught how to approach people they do not know. Have men these days forgotten ever known the value of small talk in social relationships?

Nobody should start up a conversation saying you look nice or you look sexy. That right away sets any conversation on this slightly predatory basis "I am a man I will take you as my posession."

Even "Do you come here often? [wink} is a better line as it is not in any way suggestive.

I suspect many men really do not get the need for small talk or do not have clue how to start.

I do not like wolf whistling. Again it has that sense of a male trying to dominate.

I'm glad you started this vampire. I think all this jumping up and down if someone puts a hand on your knee takes the spotlight away from really sexual assault and abuse.

I thought Ms Hartley Brewer's comment was spot on.

I also think that learning to deal with things like that helps to make women much more resilient. I worked in a similar environment to a lot of you and we coped.

I think the majority of women on GN have experienced what would now be called harassment. Girls would warn each other of the "handsy" men in the workplace and watched out for each other and we learned how to deal with it. Men would make a pass and we dealt with it - as long as the man didn't persist we would forget about it.

We all support those who have suffered sexual assault or rape but if a man does not persist or force himself on a woman that is not assault

Well it never happened to me Oldwoman70 probably as I must have given a 'don't even think about it' impression. Or I was a minger. Either way OK by me.

"Have women become such shrinking violets these days that they need legal protection from a man who is simply complimenting them even if his method of giving that compliment may be a bit crass?"
Exactly my thoughts too, VQ.

37 years ago I was working with my OH. On my birthday he kissed me, and not on the cheek, it was the start of 37 wonderful years. I'm assuming that some on GN would see that as a sexual assault?
One of the bosses in the company would often say to me "I've just had sex with you in my head" I would laugh and say "yeah, and that's where it's going to stay"
I'm like you jane10 I had that 'don't even think about it'

Was chatting with my cousin last night and we both wondered what is 'sexual assault'. Yes I know what rape is and groping but is putting a hand on someone's knee really 'assault'. If it is I am in big trouble because I am a tactile person and put my hand on her husband's knee at dinner when laughingly told him he was outnumbered in one discussion and to say nothing!

How many couples met at work or in the pub? How did they get beyond talking to making it clear they felt like getting to know them more intimately? I think men must be scared stiff in case they inadvertently mistake the situation.

Did we really need to vilify a politician because he called an ex-partner an "ugly bitch"? Yes, nasty thing to say but is it even newsworthy?

I am waiting for a man to be in the headlines complaining that a woman has put her hand on his knee. Will there be outrage then?

I am not in any way minimising assault but am very confused now when I hear that someone has been accused of sexual assault because I don't know how serious it is, was it a grope or simply a little touch on a limb?

Incidentaly, a very famous DJ once grabbed me when I was wearing my favourite low-backed dress and autographed right across my back. These days I could take him to court for it but really, was it that bad? It took my mum ages to scrub it off!

I, as a male, can't understand why it's wrong to tell a female she looks nice.

Perhaps you could enlighten me Nelliemoser.

When I worked in London and travelled on the underground many years ago there was hardly a day passed when some man or other would push up beside me (and other girls, of course). We learnt just to glare at the man and move away - not always possible on a crowded train. However, we soon found out that the spike on a long umbrella brought down swiftly onto the offender's foot usually did the trick! And there was always one man in the office who you made sure you were never alone with. It was all part of the experience of working in a mixed-sex environment.

It’s all a bit “ treading on egg shells” in this PC world, and of course what went on when we were all young would be totally unacceptable now. My main career was very male dominated ( Prison Service) and there is not much that I haven’t seen ( literally !!) or heard verbally. I have also had to investigate several allegations of sexual harassment etc Of course there are many timid, unconfident women in life, just as much as there are many strong, vocal women, so we all handle things differently. Everyone these days must be 100% sure that any contact with others, must be wanted, no intimidation and be aware that no means no. Unfortunately there have been many people who have lied to get compensation from false allegations, we also have drama queens who will make mountains out of molehills, so it all muddies the water for genuine victims. It’s truly a minefield, but with all the latest allegations let’s hope that everyone focuses on how they treat others. It takes sheer arrogance to think anyone can get away with it these days.

"Banter" is a word that sends chills down my spine. Ditto "prankster."

I totally agree with vampire. Admittedly we older ladies lived in a very different world when young, but I and my friends always considered a wolf whistle a compliment and were slightly miffed not to get one! I remember, at work aged 20 being told how nice my hair looked and that I looked very pretty. I felt really chuffed! Of course lewd comments or persistent attention can quickly turn into harassment and should never be tolerated.

What on earth is wrong with saying to someone'you look nice'? Not at all the same as saying to someone 'you look sexy'. I have complemented men in my time on their appearance, particularly a boss who thought it endeared him to his staff if he went around looking like a cleaner, despite his wife's best efforts.

I agree with you VQ. One problem is that a wolf whistle, used to be a kind of compliment. A “you look good in that” was equally a compliment though I wouldn’t like ‘good’ replaced with sexy. The only thing that made it harassment was if you felt you couldn’t say you didn’t like it without being given a rude label-eg frigid cow. Touching was always inappropriate but again people put up with it in case it affected their job/prospects and that’s the big issue for me. It’s the real reason why people never came forward with complaints. That and the attitude that it was a woman’s fault. Walking home after dropping my children at primary school my friend and I saw a man exposing himself in the passage used as a shortcut by children alone or with parents to get to and from school. We reported it and the police came round. “What were you wearing when you saw this man? Did you smile at him? Did you have your coat undone? Do you think that sundress is a bit revealing?” Those were the questions! I never reported anything again but earned the school so they could warn the children to go a different way.

Totally agree vampirequeen. I am 73 years of age, happily married for 53 years, but if any man told me I looked nice or I got a wolf whistle would take it as a compliment.

Warned the school!

I think times have changed and what is classed as inappropriate these days was common place years ago. I am not saying it was right back then, just in my view it was let go.
I was born in the 50s and when I was a young woman men ruled the roost. I had a boss that angled a mirror to look up the girls skirts when they went in his office he would not get away with that now.
I was touched up by a neighbour aged 9 but never told as I was too scared. I was sexually assaulted by 3 older boys in a park when I was 11 (my dad went to see their parents and that was the end of that one) I have narrowly escaped being raped 3 times (one I fought and escaped, the second was someone I knew and they stopped when I got very distressed, the third was abroad and a police man on a motorcycle came down at just the right time and the three men drove off). If all these things have happened in my life I imagine that there must be more women like me that have lived with their bad experiences.
To me now though think it is historic and I will never forget these things but want to leave them in the past.