When does banter become harassment?

www.theguardian.com/world/commentisfree/2017/nov/01/westminster-sexual-assault-allegations-already-being-minimised

Recognise any of this?

Why do some people keep on taking things to ridiculous extremes - why raise the ridiculous spectre of if every woman who is complimented or flirted decides this is sexual harassment . Many of us are not talking about a compliment or flirting but about unwanted attention and behaviour - a pp thought bottom pinching was acceptable ffs. There is sexual assault and sexual harassment - of course the former is more serious - for one thing it’s actually criminal but sexual harassment can cause real damage, ruin careers, knock confidence - it shouldn’t be downplayed or regarded as a bit of a joke. And it doesn’t have to be persistent or extreme to be wrong.

Can I ask a question .

What about politicians who 'kiss' , albeit on the cheek, other people. There is a prominent Politician who cannot be failed to note he does that regularly to women in his party or female followers.

Is that an occurrence that has no place in the work place environment ? Is that professional ?

Good point, Ilovecheese: when the workplace flirting or advances are not unwanted, they may lead to a date or a successful relationship, and nobody complains. Many people meet their spouses in the workplace, and the relationship may well have begun with a gentle compliment, a touch on the arm, etc. It's only the unwelcome advances that get deemed as "assault".

Of course, persistent or extreme pestering is wrong, but if every woman who is complimented or flirted with decides that this is sexual harassment, it actually undermines and devalues the real damage suffered by those who experience serious sexual assaults.

No,kitty, it never will, but while we're here, surely we should try and make it better.

jamison, the world is never going to be perfect, is it?

Maryeliza54
You know very well what my point is.

They should not have to assert themselves. That is the whole point.

Well said IloveCheese. Heaven forbid that we have high sandards of behaviour and health and safety ?

But we are not condoning them accepting it. We are expecting them to assert themselves.

And, maryeliza, you seem to be targeting me. I was neither flippant nor censorious. I have 3 daughters who will stand up for themselves and others. I also have 2 sons who will behave properly as far as other people are concerned - female or male - and who will call out anyone who behaves badly.

As most of us are mums and grans, I just cannt believe some of the posters, if on e of my girls had been treated as we were, in offices in the 60s, I would be appalled. Surely, that's what we have been trying for decades to put a stop too. Women being treated as decoration, to please men, a bit of fun,.
We will never receive complete equality while women of our age, condone and therefore encourage, our daughters and granddaughters, to accept behaviour that most of us would be outraged by.

And your point is petra?

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5037545/SARAH-VINE-hysterical-Westminster-witch-hunt.html

Definitely some DM readers on here, maybe even Sarah Vine herself.

Maryeliza54
There was a time when some people thought that you were a man by the way you 'spoke'
W11 is just saying what a lot of women in RL say.

If any boss of mine had told me to go to buy sex toys for him I would have told him to go do it himself, and probably would have told him where he could stick them.

That was to W11 btw

'hairy armpit brigade' why are you such a misogynist? What a bloody disgusting comment to make - maybe you're a man?

I think "the line" should be to to treat any employee or work colleague as you would if that person were a customer, client or patient of yours. I guess that would include making no uninvited personal remarks about someone's appearance or love life, no touching - other than shaking hands - no wolf whistling or bottom patting, etc. etc. Surely it is perfectly doable to be friendly and pleasant without engaging in any of the above practices.

Fortunately, I did not have to suffer any of this sort of behaviour in the many jobs I did, other than in my first job as a secretary in a psychiatric hospital. One or two of the consultant psychiatrists for whom I worked when their secretaries were ill or on holiday made remarks and jokes which I found very embarrassing. I recall quite clearly a social psychiatric worker returning from her honeymoon and the unit consultant placing a cushion on a chair before she sat down, remarking (accompanied by a smile) along the lines of she must be feeling sore and delicate after her honeymoon. The young woman looked embarrassed but said nothing - I was very shocked and felt extremely uncomfortable.

I would have felt uncomfortable in a work environment where men flirted, made personal remarks, were "touchy feely", etc. I understand that some women would not find this intimidating but we are not all the same and, that being the case, men (and women) should reserve that sort of behaviour for people they are very close to and know well.

I think I'm right in saying that the law would not become involved if someone wolf whistled or made a one-off personal remark (I'm not sure about the remark made to a Gransnetter that she quoted on here (can't remember who) "I have just had sex with you in my head". I would have found that totally out of order and really creepy, and I think some women would feel very intimidated by it.) Such matter should, I think, be dealt with in the workplace and, if necessary, disciplinary action taken.

But uninvited touching, patting a bottom, etc., could, I believe, be prosecutable. Surely it is not beyond a man (or woman) to undertand this and to desist from behaving in such as way.

I believe putting an arm round a person's shoulder or placing a hand on their lower back to usher them along is the sort of body language that psychologists see as power-related, e.g. it would be highly unlikely for a junior employee to put his or her arm round the shoulder of someone senior to them. It would be equally unusual, I think, for a junior employee to tell a very risque joke to a senior manager unless the senior manager had already set the tone.

Whilst some may disapprove and think it risky for people to "hook up" on Tinder and have casual sex, it is their choice and by consent. It is entirely different from uninvited touching or persistent sexual harassment.

Another poster said "We all put up with some kind of inappropriate touching. We learned to avoid the worst people and laugh about it between ourselves. Lots of snowflakes around these days."

My response to that is you may well feel it is a laughing matter to be inappropriately touched but many women do not and why should they "put up" with behaviour which they find distasteful, demeaning and sometimes frightening? I see it as a form of bullying and I don't think that someone who is being bullied should be called a "snowflake".

If a man I knew needed to lose weight and did so I would comment on his resolve and I am sure he would be pleased and not see it as a come on.
But then the people I know are well adjusted and would believe th6st I meant what I said and would not treat it as sexual innuendo.

I'm surprised that the good old days, when we women accepted the odd pat or pinch on the bottom, along with harmless banter is being seen through rose coloured specs. I'm stunned that a number of posters share the view that a compliment could result in someone running to the newspapers crying sexual harassment.
The suggestion that it's more difficult for men to know what's acceptable, where the line is drawn is frankly demeaning to men. None of the men I'm close to/love have any problems understanding how to behave generally and with the women in their lives and workplaces.
give us a break - give the young women and men who are attempting to speak out about their abuse experiences a bit of respect and don't diminish it by re-framing it as banter or a bit of fun.

Fallon has resigned.

Fallon has resigned from his front bench job.

And as for you Vampirequeen you hussy 1

Ilovecheese
In answer to your question: all of the above

I was the person who said about being chuffed when my weight loss was commented on. What was wrong with that? I'd worked hard to lose it. I complimented a male colleague when he lost weight and when he bulked up his muscles. In both cases he'd worked hard to change his body and I was acknowledging his success. I also felt his arm muscles which were lovely and he was very proud of them. I hardly think he thought it was a come on as I was old enough to be his mam.