When does banter become harassment?

If the recipient had fancied the perpetrator the attention wouldn't have bee unwanted would it?
And who on earth are the "hairy armpit brigade" are they the same as the 'elf and safety brigade" or the "pc gorn mad brigade"

The point that seems to be missing in the comments here regarding what is wrong with a compliment in the office is twofold. Firstly, speaking as a professional woman, I would not expect to be complimented on my appearance by a male colleague, no more than I would say “you look nice” to him. Someone said their male boss told her that she had lost weight and it suited her. Can you imagine saying that to a man at work? It would be seen as a come on. A come on from someone in a position of relative power (could effect your job) can be threatening and is often used to groom ( how far can I go? Maybe she'll go out and buy sex toys if I tell her to, then maybe . . .). Secondly, yes lots of people have relationships with people they work with. They are most often more or less equals (in the power dynamic of the organisation). It starts with friendly chat, eventually the suggestion of a drink etc, followed by flirting. In this way, it’t Easy for both parties to monitor if they want the same thing. Also most cases of harassment being cited are about being touched on the bottom or breast and in one case being referred to as ‘sugar tits’. And no I don’t think the JHB situation was harassment as they were both equals from different professions at a social event and he stopped when told!

I agree with everything you have said VAMPIREQUEEN. What makes me wonder is if the recipient of "unwanted" attention fancied the perpetrator would it have been reported? Women aren't weaker, its just the "hairy arm-pit brigade making noise. These days I find it difficult to tune into woman's hour as there is always some feminist ranting on about something or other. I worked in the Oil industry for 46 years, very male dominated, you gave as good as you got, if the situation arose, which it rarely did. What I did see a lot of however, was women harrassing men!

Did you watch PMQ where Lisa Nandy reminded May that she told her three times about inappropriate behaviour and the Tory whips covering it up?
May had no real response to it.

twitter.com/lisanandy/status/925703673459761153/photo/1

Its awful what you went through inish but you shouldn't be annoyed that 'lesser' things are complained about. For one thing, with some men the 'lesser' thing may be the tip of the iceberg. What exactly is your husband's 'man's point of view' on what happened to you? That it was OK? That you 'asked for it' by virtue of being a young woman? That 'boys will be boys'. That you should have handled it better?

I experienced extreme sexual harassment in an office when just seventeen. My boss who was middle aged would come up behind me and pick me up and swing me round. The more I struggled the more he liked it. In fact he would tell me that. Sometimes I had to go and find him when there was a phone call for him and he would chase me back to the office. I was in constant fear of him. He boasted he was accused of rape when he was fourteen and got away with it. He talked about sex all the time. Although I loved my job I had to leave because of him. It annoys me slightly that some woman are complaining about much less things than I endured. I argue with my husband about it. He sees it from a mans point of view and I still feel like a frightened teenager who was not able to cope with it.

You didn't - but you certainly said in a very flippant censorious way that women should sort it out themselves without rushing to the papers. And we haven't done right by our sons if they can't behave appropriately towards women- and our daughters are often in a completely unequal situation - read what Primrose said. Don't you believe her?

No need to be rude maryeliza54! No where did I say all/most go to the papers.

We have not done right by our daughters if they can't be assertive.

Most don't rush to the papers - what a ridiculous comment. Some tried to go through the proper systems and were batted away, some are too ashamed. Primrose is absolutely spot on in what she says and it's a pity that more of you don't understand what it's like in reality for women trying to do something.

I know men should know the line but if they don't why not just tell to flipping well behave/grow up. It was worse when we were young as men did have the power but, now, women should be capable of sorting them out without rushing ro the papers.

That isn't a comment about serious sexual assault/abuse or rape.

Yup men know that having one-night-stands, flings and affairs with younger or more junior women in the workplace is WRONG. Doubly wrong if they are married.

Most men know what that line is. That's why a lot of it goes on in secret. If, as has been suggested, some women have been seriously assaulted, then surely the correct procedure is to involve the Police and bypass any system set up from within.

I don't see 'snowflake' behaviour IRL. I do see a lot of women who know there is no point in complaining, or worse, a complaint will have them marked as 'snowflake' and will have a negative impact on their career.
Calling out a male colleague as a sexual harasser is not without consequence.

I think its incredibly insulting to call these women 'snowflakes;' rather than calling the men entitled bastards quite frankly.

Talking to friends in their 70's yesterday. We all put up with some kind of inappropriate touching. We worked in various places factories, offices, hospitals etc. We just learnt to avoid the worst people and laughed about it between ourselves. Just made sure we avoided being alone with the perpetrators. Warning other staff members immediately. Lots of snowflakes around these days.

But kitty that is putting the onus on the victim? and why should they have to put up with it? Shrinking violet or not.

It is the perpetrator who in my view needs a kick up the proverbial and dealt with as appropriate.

Some of you must know some very strange men if you think men can't make judgements about appropriate behaviour towards women both in and out of the work place.

I'm surprised that the generations behind us are not stronger about stopping unwanted attention and touching - how did they come to be such shrinking violets? Pass the smelling salts someone!!

Spot on Primrose.

It isn't just fear of being thought 'prudish' though Anya it's about being mocked and laughed at for having 'no sense of humour' or being low down in the pecking order. If men didn't engage in sexist banter, then women wouldn't have to make the line clearer would they? I hope this whole thing is a huge wake up call to those entitled 'men' who think 'banter' is funny. Jess Philips and a male MP both overheard two male MPS making very disparaging comments about the whole issue on their way into hear Andrea Leadsmen's statement - I fear some the worst offenders will never 'get it'

Spot on Primrose and Pamish

There's a meme -
"I think the golden rule for men should be: Don't say anything to a woman that you wouldn't want a man in prison saying to you."
I disagree with the 'poor men, they don't know where the line is' view. I think most men would find it pretty insulting to be told they cannot judge context and appropriate behaviour.

Lesson 101, over and over - would they do the same to a man?

I think lemongrass’s comment about a line being crossed is spot on. We, as women, know where that line is. Sometimes it’s not so easy for men to know exactly where that line is, as shown by the confusion of the men posting on this thread. I’m not talking about extremes of course. It would help everybody if women would just make that line clearer and not pretend to enjoy (as one example) ‘banter’ that crosses that line, for fear of being thought prudish.

Speak out.

More of them are now "taking legal advice". You bet they are.

One problem is that these men don't realise that what they are doing is unwanted. They do it automatically, and if they miss the flinch that is hidden they don't learn.

Well look what happened in Dubai for a man touching another mans hip