When does banter become harassment?

Vampirequeen your OP could have been the conversation I had with my friends when we gathered a few days ago!

All the courting rituals of animals in the wild - some very overt - are 'natural', so why all of a sudden have male advances of the flirtatious nature become so taboo?

I am presuming every woman knows where a line should be drawn and we all know what unwelcome sexual advances are, (and women can be as guilty) but when did plain old 'flirting' become so dangerous?

I think back with happy memories at the silly and harmless flirting I engaged in and the compliments I received when young. I didn't feel threatened, ever, or belittled or inferior.

Young men today must be terrified of making any overtures towards women, and we are in danger of painting every interested male as a rapacious predator.

What is going on? I feel sorry for any man who may have patted a bottom playfully in the '70s who is now being labelled a sex fiend. I am well aware that today such behaviour is unwanted and we are more enlightened, but as ever, the past was a different land and we cannot keep apologising for what were norms at the time.

I agree with you Vampire Queen and on the rare occasions this happened to me in the past I was chuffed that I was considered attractive enough to get attention, though I regret to say no one ever wolf whistled me!

No they wouldn't be prosecuted Diddy but if it happened it should certainly be dealt with. I just love the way that people excuse coarse and crude remarks when they have no idea that the person they are addressed to or who is joining in the 'laughter' may be crying inside.

If only it were sweetheart rather that sugar tits that were the issue in Westminster

I can understand someone feeing very uncomfortable by being told she looks attractive in a work situation - why on earth is that sort of comment needed? And what might it implicitly signify - who knows and none should have to guess or worry. Ive had plenty of positive feedback at work over the years such as 'an excellent piece of work', that's fine and appropriate.

I think tolerance of casual sexism/racism etc is much less than it was. I remember an Inspector on a visit to the college where I worked in the 70s 'jovially' asking if my female colleague and I who ran a course did our knitting during our team meetings. We just thought he was a prat but I honestly don't remember any sexual banter in any place I worked. I think banter is hard to justify if it has a sexual or racist undertone. Its very common when someone challenges banter to be made to feel uncomfortable by being accused of not having a sense of humour. In all the places I've worked there has always been some jokes and laughter amongst us all but it simply doesn't have to be sexist or racist does it? Women ( and BME) and disabled people) have had to put up so much with unthinking at best and deliberate at worst so-called 'banter' that it was a form of institutionalised harassment.

*complimenter not complimented. Bloody autocorrect

I was talking about this the other day with my gasman, and he recounted the story of someone telling a woman at work she was very attractive, and he thought that was a compliment, not harassment. I said it depended on the context: was it AT work (inappropriate) or in the pub after work (grow up and deal with it). Was it once (ok) or persistently repeated (creepy). Was it someone in a senior position (dodgy) or a junior (slap the pup away!)
I love a wolf whistle though I can’t remember the last time I got one, and love being told I’m attractive - but let’s face it: if the complimented is not up your street, you don’t really want the compliment, do you?

I agree with Petra too - porn has a great deal of influence on young men - indeed young people as it can make women feel worthless. However, I do find the current overheated situation with regard to harassment quite disturbing; there is no excuse, none whatsoever for a leering groping male who thinks he can say and do what he likes to any woman, but there is also a need to think about kindly words like 'Hello sweetheart' from a stall holder (I love that) or my dear late Geordie boss who greeted me with a big smile every day and a 'Hello Pet!'. I miss it still. Do we want these things to disappear? There is a whole world of difference between the two types of behaviour and surely any sensible woman knows the difference. I liked the report of the journalist's response to the minister who touched her knee - to stop it or she would punch his face. Haha! But why is that event, of fifteen or so years ago, being resurrected now? It seems to have been dealt with more than adequately at the time.

We live within striking distance of the Bernard Matthews factory and many years ago our plumber used to work there as well on an ad hoc basis. He had to give it up as he was afraid to walk through one bit of the plant which was all women as he was constantly physically molested. I wonder if it still happens!

I agree with the OP absolutely! I used to enjoy the wolf whistles and compliments and certainly wouldn't have complained. Still enjoy compliments and jokey banter with male friends and I know them well enough to know they are harmless! I give as good as I get too! But we all knew at work in the old days when someone went a bit too far and tended to avoid them. I wouldn't have dreamed of reporting anyone as I would have been thought of as a humourless frigid 'feminist' by both male and female colleagues. The attitude was 'It's only old Jim - he's like that with us all. Take it wth a pinch of salt!' That was wrong I now think and one person I am thinking of ended up losing his job as we gathered he had gone too far with someone (we never found out what had happened.)
However, to complain that someone put his hand on your knee in the 1970s is just ridiculous. There's a big difference between a bit of innuendo/ mild touching and sexual abuse/rape.

EEJit I was aiming that remark, (that is not to launch into remarks about a persons appearance as a first attempt at a chat up line.) It is naff beyond belief.

It would make me think right away that the person I was talking to really did lack social skills. Hello or good morning or the weather other such social niceties should come first.
From this conversation I have repeated my thoughts on how hard some men find this.

Believe me men! Women do notice things like this.
When you know the person reasonably well making comments about their clothes is not quite so instrusive.
Please schools teach your males some social skills .

(Then that depends if there is a tone of a leer in the voice.)
There was some comedy actor that did that smarmy leering voice act.

Let us put serious sexual assault on one side - there is total agreement about this. And ditto anything that implies an abuse of power (e.g. not getting promotion).

It is interesting that in these permissive days (take a look on Mumsnet!) there is zero tolerance of what we might once have seen as part of the light-hearted to and fro of work and social life. The more sexual behaviour becomes free and easy, the less we tolerate what are now seen as inappropriate comments. Strange.

It might be hard for men to know quite where to draw the line for each individual woman. Some comments are very clearly on the wrong side of the line and others on the right side - but the bits in between must be hard to negotiate.

A male colleague once said "I want to f* you." to me. Clearly unacceptable - I talked with my female manager about it and we were both aware of what this man was going through at the time (cancer treatment) - I chose not to make a formal complaint, but to talk to him myself and explain how I felt about it. All was well after that.

I used to work in an office (45 tears ago) and went out to get cakes. (I was eight months pregnant - this is relevant!) As I was walking back to the office some workmen wolf-whistled at me from a roof. I was so thrilled (because of being pregnant!!) that I looked up at them ... and promptly fell down a hole...!!!!!!!! (I had to go home as became very dizzy once back at work!!!) So, even though I ended up in a hole I still don't find wolf-whistling anything other than a compliment!!!!

I agree with petra the easy access to online pornography must considerably contribute to the way some men think of women.

We live in a bonkers world where on the one hand it's possible to hook up on tinder etc and have sex with complete strangers yet a flattering word or non threatening touch (always in context of course) is considered by some to be an assault. Bemused!

It has got out of hand recently, I often put my hand on someone when a joke has been told, while laughing, oh dear, what does that mean these days.
In the sixties when nursing, we often had a lot of jokes and suggestions, especially on a male orthopaedic ward, but it was all in fun, nothing serious, now they would be prosecuted!

In 1971, Nationwide sent Nicky Woodhead out to pinch men's bottoms, in the name of sexual equality. From the BBC Archive page on Facebook.
www.facebook.com/BBCArchive/videos/247529528953418
The men who lifted their hats to speak to her made me smile.

Like kazziecookie I too was a 50s baby and have “escaped” being raped as a young woman and never told anyone. I have also worked in male environments and with ex offenders and consider myself to be pretty robust - but I think these changes which simply mean our bodies are our own are all for the best. It won’t mean we can’t give/receive compliments but these will be WHEN APPROPRIATE.

I think it’s all about power and control and is partly tied up with the notions of femininity/masculinity. It’s not helped by being infantilised as women - we should be seen as equals in the workplace. I hate women being referred to as “you girls” (though I accept that my own father always did it). I say let’s move on to a more equal future. I think the “respect” word is regularly misused these days but do think this is about respect in the widest sense- not just for women but for everyone alike.

Good post VQ and Coconut there is a line isn’t there, which we all know when it is crossed.
Misogyny has played a big part also, especially at Westminster, and in any male dominated profession.
A hand on the knee and a pat on the bottom should certainly not be done, but it doesn’t equate to assault in my book, and I would ( and have!) dealt with it.

How much has the proliferation of pornography had on the attitude of 'some' men.?
My opinion is: a great deal.

I worked in a mainly male environment and I loved it, we all had a great working environment and working relationship, sometimes touchy but totally innocent. We talked and laughed and shared most aspects of each other's lives, I missed them when I retired even though we keep in touch and meet up occasionally.

Times have changed. To be honest, in the '60s when I was a teenager, if I didn't get wolf whistled or chatted up when I went out in all my finery, I would be upset. Of course, that is different to being touched in an inappropriate way. I agree with your last sentence Kim

The three that come to mind were all so unexpected. My perfectly pleasant deputy head, during a conversation gently put his fingers into the breastpocket of my shirt. I must have looked amazed. He removed them and we continued the conversation.
I was in a bedroom getting my coat to leave a party when a man I don't recall having anything to do with came in. He shut the door and grabbed me. I yelled and friends came in and dragged him out.
An 18 year old with a rugby team grabbed my breast in a nightclub. Some of his fellow team members who I was talking to stopped him and apologised for him. All in the ‘60s.
Worse has happened to me but these were all so out of the blue. I had done nothing to prompt them.

Gosh, I'm thinking what a cold and unfriendly world is one in which no one can pay a sincere no strings compliment to a member of the opposite sex. This need not be appearance. Could be an achievement of various sorts. Would this also apply to people of the same sex? I remember in my days of receiving wolf whistles (long since gone!!) I simply smiled and said 'Gee thanks' and don't ever recollect a single crudity or negative follow-up. I do believe we girls quickly used to recognise the difference between sinister and playful and responded accordingly.