Let's not Forget Brexit(2)

I read the link to the Alistair Campbell Piece Jen - that poor young man - I wonder what did happen to him.

I think someone has, Tegan.
Unfortunately, if you read Welshwife's link, you will find they are not going to change their minds.
The one hope we have is that if we have another referendum lots more people vote to stay, those who never voted in the first one.

...oh, and car manufacturing areas [mostly leave] also want their car producing factories to not be affected by brexit also...#youcouldn'tmakeitup

Given that Ireland, who voted remain want to have special treatment, does this not mean that Scotland should also. However, areas that voted for brexit also want to have special treatment because they are deprived areas and needed the EU funding that central government wasn't giving them. Oh, and fishing areas want to have special treatment post brexit.......

"The United Kingdom has to look to the future. The past, with its great mixture of good and bad in imperial times and since, has to cease being an anchor holding back our psychological modernisation as a country. One of the clearest and most dismaying diagnoses of our national psychosis is offered by Joris Luyendijk in Prospect magazine. Here was someone who came to live in the UK full of admiration and hope – and learned to think differently about our country, the hard way. If we do not have the guts to hear what others say, and see ourselves as others see us, we will not escape the myths we blind ourselves with. And escape we must; for that is how we can escape national decline.

Our choice is between taking a leading part in building one of the world’s greatest communities of influence and progress, or becoming an isolated offshore third-world-status minor player. We can be big in a Europe which is big in the world; or we can be nowhere: we can be tiny, marginal and over.

We forget the mighty empires of the Romans and the Spanish in history, long gone and now forgotten; we ignore the resurgent empire of China in today’s world; we are a small country that would fit into Hudson’s Bay in Canada if moved round the relevant line of latitude. So if we wish to live up to our history and have a real say in our future, we need to stop the insanity of Brexit, reform our democracy and our self-perception, and shape up. It is way past time."

A C Grayling in The New European.

www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/alastair-campbell-brexit-nhs-1-5274286

A disturbing article by Alastair Campbell.
Brexiteers, what would you choose, to leave Europe or to have a decent health service?

I believe that article, Welshwife.
Those who voted for Brexit won't read anything that tells them they might be wrong.
They were brainwashed (by Putin?) before the referendum and now will not listen to the other side, which shows them they were brainwashed.

"Some studies also suggest that high self-esteem makes people more confident and certain in their decisions. High self-esteem and self-belief is also often a sign of low intelligence. How you apply this information in the current context is up to you. I’m saying nothing."

Well done, Cindersdad.
Most of those you sent it to probably will not read it, although your name may be even higher up the list now.

Found this article today - interesting reading.

www.theguardian.com/science/brain-flapping/2017/nov/09/the-neuroscience-of-no-regrets-why-people-still-support-brexit-and-trump?CMP=share_btn_link

I went to a Liverpool for Europe meeting last evening. So sorry you missed it... This is a direct copy on an email sent to a friend who could not make it. Then I got carried away and copied several other MPs, the BBC and the Daily Mail! (that will brand me as a traitor, like the High Court Judges). My cell at the Tower awaits.

^Hi

I'm so sorry you couldn't make the meeting in Liverpool last night. I know my name , along with Prof Dougan and many others will be on the Brexit Hit List unless we hit them first.

The pressure needs to be kept up on MPs, the Media and other trend setters to unmask the truth behind Brexit. The government is making lists of academics, dissenters like me who refuse to be quiet while our country in being dragged down the pan. This happened in Turkey recently, in Germany in the 1930's complacency could let it happen here. We don't want that do we?

Robbie Burns once said "God grant us the gift to see ourselves as others see us". David Davis (yes him!) "If a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy". Outsiders see Britain on a path to self destruction, Teresa May has become a puppet to the right wing of her party.

The time for action, not letting go is now. If we just let it go the Populists will have won and we will all be the poorer.

Alison McGovern, Maria Eagle, Louis Elman (Local MP's), Julie Ward, Teresa Griffin (North West MEP's) are already onside. So please keep stirring it. Join Open Britain, Liverpool for Europe or other equivalent group and rock the ** boat. Get more heads above the parapet.

Kind Regards

Cindersdad

P.S. This started as a note to my friend and grew into .....Apologies to those of you who did not know about the meeting. ^

CNN reporting that the CIA have found that Russia directly interfered in the Brexit referendum, by posting thousands of tweets etc in support of Brexit.

Of course anything to de-stabalize the EU will suit Putin as it is a such a strong economic block and force for peace.

Yet one other reason that makes the referendum illegitimate.

Ireland is causing headaches isn’t it?

Oh I forgot! This was actually mentioned once or twice before the referendum.

Fancy this government not preparing for this .

I hope they have no intention of putting the GFA at risk.

Puts trade deals into perspective.

ukandeu.ac.uk/post-brexit-uk-trade-policy-still-just-a-wish-list/

John Kerr, the peer who drafted Article 50, says we don’t have to leave the EU if we don’t want to. We imagine the letter a future prime minister writes to Donald Tusk, the EU Council president, explaining that we’ll stay after all.

Dear Donald

My predecessor informed you of our “intention” to quit the EU in March 2017. I want to tell you that we have changed our mind and no longer intend to leave, and so we are withdrawing our notification under Article 50 of the treaty.

John Kerr, who wrote Article 50, has pointed out that we have the right to change our minds. You yourself said in October 2017 we have three options: “A good deal, no deal or no Brexit”.

We held a referendum yesterday in which the people made clear they wish to stay in the EU. This is because new facts have emerged.

First, the deal Theresa May was able to agree was not a “good deal”. It was nothing like what Boris Johnson and other Leave campaigners promised in the previous 2016 referendum. Rather than £350 million a week coming our way, we would have paid you £50 billion to settle our past bills. We were not able to have our cake and eat it, either. The deal would have meant less access to our most important market and we would have had to follow many of your rules without having a vote on them. Exactly the opposite of “taking back control”.

Second, our economy is already suffering. The Brexit-induced plunge in the pound has pushed up prices; investment has ground to a halt; and we have moved from being the fastest to the slowest growing economy in the Group of Seven large industrialised nations. And we have not even left. The British people do not want to be stuck in the slow lane as far as the eye can see.
Third, the Brexiters’ “global Britain” mantra has been revealed as guff. The idea that we would become swashbuckling buccaneers like Sir Francis Drake is nonsense. Without the clout of the EU behind us, we saw that other big trading blocs would bully us. We would be powerless to stop China dumping its steel, America forcing chlorine-washed chicken down our throats and Apple refusing to pay a fair amount of tax.

Fourth, the world’s getting more dangerous. We had not expected Donald Trump to become US president and try to tear up the Paris climate agreement and the Iran nuclear deal – or say Nato was obsolete. We had not expected terrorist attacks on British soil. We now know we are better able to face these dangers by working with Europe rather than turning our backs on it.

Finally, we realise that the big migration challenge for the next generation is not free movement of people within Europe but the tens of millions of people on the move in Africa and Asia. They cannot get to America or Japan. Many want to come here. We need a joined-up policy – involving trade, aid, diplomacy and selective military action – to stabilise this region. We know we are much more likely to be successful if we work with the rest of Europe than pull up the drawbridge.

This is a genuine change of heart. It is true that we’re not in the eurozone or the border-free Schengen Area – and have no intention to join them. But we want to be fully involved in everything else. We want to help our European friends make the economy more dynamic by completing the single market. We want to manage globalisation so the benefits of technology and trade are shared fairly among all our people rather than increasing inequality. And we want to make Europe stronger and safer in this turbulent world.

There is lots of work to do. Let’s get cracking.

Best wishes

A. N. Other PM

instituteforgovernment.cmail20.com/t/r-l-jrclljk-hyijirukdj-n/

A timeline for what should happen with Brexit. It will be interesting to see how much it changes from now on.
Magnifying it to over 100% makes it legible.

Charles Grant - director for European Reform.

Summary of where he thinks we are heading re Brexit

1. There will be a deal in December U.K. will accept a financial settlement of approx 50bn. The EU will compromise on eu citizens rights by retreating from its insistence that the ECJ has a powerful role. Sufficient progress will therefore hav3 been made.

2. Here will be a hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland. (Thus trashing the GFA, - bloody outrageous imo) there will have to be some sort of borde4 checks between the two.

3. The U.K. will agree to a transition on the eu terms. This will feel very much like the status quo, with both sides pretending that it will only last for 2 years, when in fact it will take eons to sort everything out.

4. Maybots hope that the future relationship with the e u can be sorted out - will not happen. Most trade experts think that future relationships will take years to settle, with the hardest thing to settle on is the action the EU can take if U.K. deviates from the EU rules.

5.the U.K. will avoid making detailed proposals on a future economic relationship. Hard to get through a divided cabinet, and would increase chances of being rejected by the EU. U.K. will ask for a bespoke deal that is better than Canada but less than Norway.

6
The EU will reject the U.K. request for a bespoke deal. EU will insist that the U.K. choose between, Canada, Norway or WTO. Single market is a package , you can’t pick and choose. U.K. is banking on 27 fracturing, and willing to give U.K. a deal on its services in particular.

7.eu might eventually soften and agree to something close to single market access in specific areas. But it will demand cash payments.that ECJ keeps its jurisdiction, and migration remains.

8 The EUs top priority, it to ensure U.K. does not undercut its regulatory standards, it fears that the U.K. will attract investment becaus3 it slashes it’s environmental and social regulations, as well as slashing corporation taxes or diverging from the eu on state aid and competition.

9. The city of London will be damaged. City firms will lose their passporting rights for access to the single market. At second best the city is hoping for a good deal on regulatory equivalence but even that will be very hard to achieve and likely to involve U.K. as rule taker rather than as now rule maker

10.
A free trade deal of some sort will be agreed. Due to two reasons. First if it looks like the U.K. will crash out of the eu with no agreement, the eu will face a major headache. Merkel and Macron plan to spend next year sorting out ne2 plans for the euro zone. A messy Brexit would get in the way.
Second if the financial markets believe that the U.K. is going to leave without an agreement they will panic with all the result consequences.
Whatever Maybot and her ministers say in public, they know that a bad deal is better than a no deal.

cinders -yes I thought Bone embarrassingly awful. Another incompetent.

The more I hear from the mouth of TM the more I see signs of paranoia. She is really sounding almost fascist and that is simply not acceptable to the British people. I'm in an open Britain local group. Stamping out dissent is NOT the democratic or the British way. The politics of extreme, mainly on the right but also on the left is alienating the nation. Something has to give.

I posted on my local OB Facebook page a comment to Lord Kerr's intervention.

We seem to be living in a Brexit Dictatorship the tone is anything but democratic. We have to rely on democratic MP's doing what is right and standing up for the people. We did loose the referendum but cannot simply ignore the flaws in the referendum, the Brexiteers are running scared of being exposed and really beginning to panic.

So please spread the word, write to and harass your MP's at the every possible moment. I'm maybe just a lone voice but many former MP's seem to have similar beliefs. On Gransnet we an protest all we want but who outside Gransnet will take any notice.

We cannot just disregard the referendum result BUT we can demand a second referendum when the more of the facts are known and then the people decide in the cooler light of day.

Seeing Peter Bone and Chuka Umuna briefly on BBC Breakfast I know who is running scared. PB blusters where as CU tried to put his point across with dignity.

Lord Kerr, the author of A50, has reiterated once again that it is not a binding, and in fact Maybot is misleading the British, like so much in this debacle.

I see May is wheeling out “The will of the people” again. But what this “will” actually means has never been established as the vote was based on so many lies, ignorance and self serving propaganda. However, if we accept the illegitimate referendum result, we absolutely must give due consideration to our national interest, which should include the non-existent risk impact assessments.

I think there is a strong if not irrefutable argument to revisit the result once the negotiations have reached a stage where it is clear what the future holds for the U.K. if we follow the negotiated path. This I think is the role for parliament. Our elected representatives must put party aside (it should be a free vote) and vote for the U.K. and not party. If in the final event it decides to leave then so be it, and I for one with extreme reluctance will accept the decision, but I think at this point there is everything to play for, and we have every reason to hope that we will stay as part of a club of democracies, that together provides a strong and peaceful voice in the world.

I was astounded at Michael Hestletine!! He couldn’t quite get it out, but he suggested that if he had a vote he would almost certainly vote for Corbyn as apparently are many of his conservative friends,

It is very clear for those of us who live in Europe and follow the Press and TV there in several countries - very 'easy' to not be aware when over the water on the island.

What European newspapers are saying bout the UK as new round of negotiations starts

twitter.com/NinaDSchick/status/928573459805982721

(I'll give you a clue. nothing very positive)

From your link Jen

The EU’s chief Brexit negotiator, Michel Barnier, has challenged Theresa May’s beleaguered government to address the fundamental question of whether Britain wants to deregulate and follow the US social and economic model or stay within the European mainstream.

I don't know about you but I don't think our own government has asked us this. Watching Gordon Brown it is interesting that he feels we are seeing the end of neo-liberalism. That relates to the Owen Jones article. Okay this people who have a high level of interest in politics but please, oh please can we see the end of the devastation Thatcher started.

I'm enjoying it, Maizie.

Worthwhile reading all these statements to see where we are.

www.theguardian.com/politics/ng-interactive/2017/jul/20/where-are-we-up-to-in-these-brexit-talks