The Irish question

It is indeed - very very delicate - and I'm not sure balance can be found.

Any suggestions for the border? That will satisfy both the DUP and Sinn Fein. Anyone with close contact with NI and the Republic will know just how fragile the Good Friday agreement is, how many have never accepted it - and how it could so so easily just go 'booom' again. Project fear, I suppose, you will say.

In that case suzied you must know that things are never one sided and simple with NI. The DUP has a lot of support it doesn’t operate in a vacuum.They are the largest Party in the power sharing ,with ten MP’s in Westminster.Therefore a lot of people in NI donagree with their views, even if you or I do not.

Typo...’do agree with their views’.

Well if the whole of the UK stays in the customs union or EEA, Northern Ireland would not be separated from UK by a border.
Scotland and London would be happy. Remain voters would be happy. Businesses on the whole would be happy.
A UK Customs union could be given a "bespoke" British sort of name as a compromise. ("Brit union?" )
The extreme Brexiteers would be unhappy. Can't May ignore them?

I am not surprised at the ease some posters are happy for Northern Ireland to be placed in a situation where it has a different border with the UK if Northern Ireland had a 'Sea Border'.

I am not surprised there is a view that Northern Ireland should put up and shut up , stay in the Single Market as per the treaties rules which means it remains under the durisdiction of the EU not the United Kingdom government for trade , possibly in it's entirity.

I am not surprised there is still a view that it is simply a case of Northern Ireland could presumably 'cherry pick' the parts in the treaties of the Single Market and repeat the statement it could stay in the EEA/EFTA. If you don't agree with the term 'cherry pick' then you are agreeing Northern Ireland must abide the treaties, The Four Freedoms/Pillars.

There appears to be no compromise from the EU negotiating team agreeing to any movement on the Single Market terms and the talk of understanding the Irish situation is looking like nothing more than clap trap.

I am of the opinion those who are happy to abandon Northern Ireland would be the first to shout from the roof tops if the Westminster government dared to cut off Scotland or Wales from the UK with a border , although obviously the Independent Parties would cheer that happening .

David Davis just said in H of C, that no part of the UK would be treated differently from other parts.

So if they've just said NI could stay in a customs union/single market then the whole of UK should.

The referendum didn't mention customs union or single market. That is an interpretation that has been put on the result by people who want an extreme Brexit. The referendum decision to leave the EU does not oblige us to leave the customs union or the single market or the EEA.

mostly harmless

And how does the UK stay in the EEA without the EU relaxing Treaty Rules?

If there is no relaxing of the treaty rules over Ireland then the EU position is made quite clear ' thus far'.

If the UK stays in the Single Market , Custom Union may have a tad of sway, then the UK remains a member of the European Union as the EEA/EFTA/Switzerland as it agrees to abide by the Four Freedoms.

That may be the hope for some but not for all.

" The referendum didn't mention customs union or single market."

The 'wording ' on the ballot paper did not mention it neither did it say do you want to abide by the Four Freedoms etc. etc.

It is also a myth that some espouse that leaving the Single Market and Customs Union was not mentioned during the pre Referendum debates. It may have or may not have been understood but it was most certainly spoken of, reported on widely .

POGS the Government seems not to be too worried about the four freedoms.
.
They could already be limiting immigration under EU rules but have chosen not to.

After Brexit we can expect every new trade agreement to commit us to more immigration. The Government is making it clear that we need immigration to run agriculture, the NHS, care homes, building trade and other industries. We can't cope without immigration.

I've just checked the "Vote Leave" leaflet.
Neither the customs union or even the single market were mentioned.
But the £350 million a week for the NHS is mentioned quite explicitly.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36014941

Lermon, I am well aware that the DUP would not wish for a border in the Irish Sea. They also would not accept a border anywhere else, it seems. Do they have a solution, I wonder?

Sorry, don't know where Lermon came from, of course I meant Lemon.

Lemongrove:
'The DUP has a lot of support it doesn’t operate in a vacuum.They are the largest Party in the power sharing ,with ten MP’s in Westminster.Therefore a lot of people in NI donagree with their views, even if you or I do not.' - and here we agree.

But please, would you and Day6 stop saying 'oh it will be allright on the day, they'll find a way, lalalalalala ... la' - PLEASE tell us what solution you can think about that both Sinn Fein and the DUP will agree on- and that will be acceptable as part of a deal with the EU. PLEASE ... no more rhetoric or pie in the sky - give us a way forward.

I don't think there is a way this can be resolved. If there is a "frictionless border" then regulations have to be the same on both sides of the border. Important ones affecting milk for instance. N Irish cows give milk that is processed in the S and then shipped back across the border to be sold in NI supermarkets. How could they have different food standards in NI than in the rest of UK? If EU regs change there would be an inevitable knock on effect. So much for the "taking back control" mantra so close to those brexiter hearts. This always was going to be the tough nut to crack but May and Davis don't seem to get it. Or was she thinking she could pop across the channel, shake hands on a deal without consulting her partners in the DUP and proceed smoothly to trade talks having pulled a fast one? They certainly seemed to believe the deal was done or she'd never have gone and never scheduled an announcement in parliament today etc.

I suppose if we could have a free trade agreement with the EU there wouldn’t be so much of a problem. But of course we can’t negotiate that until the border is sorted. Catche 22.

Can't have a free trade agreement with the EU without staying a member. That was said from the start.

This is interesting.
infacts.org/pro-brexit-press-oddly-muted-11th-hour-irish-upset/

I wonder why. They've always had answers before.

I didn’t say things were one sided or simple- who has? It’s just that the 10 DUP MPs seem to be ruling the roost here. I think the definition of “ British” is not necessarily the same both sides of the Irish Sea. I don’t think dressing up in orange sashes and bowler hats and giving the finger to Catholic Churches is necessarily understood in many parts of the UK. Noone has yet answered the question about how come the DUP can choose which bits of the UK law they want to abide by.

Not just UK/NI law, but also UK/EU law. I think it was Juncker who said that there have been lots of dispensations for the Irish question.
So why is Arlene Foster being allowed to give the impression that the laws are the same?

Why can’t we have a free trade agreement? Other countries do? Goods move freely, but not capital or labour. Then milk can go back and forth as much as it likes.

fullfact.org/europe/how-many-free-trade-deals-has-eu-done/

Which other countries have a Free Trade Agreement with the EU that does not include Free Movement of people and abiding by same rules and standards, as a pre-requisite?

I just understood that a free trade agreement is for goods alone, not people or money. Not the same as a single market. I’m only going by discussions on the radio and I’m always doing something else as well so rarely remember who says what. It seems to be something which is being pushed from several directions. Except those who want the whole thing to collapse of course. I can’t quote from publications like wot Jen does.

trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2012/november/tradoc_150129.pdf

A link from the previous fullfact link.
All the free trade agreements that the EU are trying to get organised.
Goods only is no good for the UK, as 80% of our exports are services, and free trade agreements do not include those.
We cannot have a free trade agreement with the EU, because it is 27 different countries, and we would have to negotiate with all 27 separately. How long do you think that will take? In the meantime...?
The EU does not want to give us a free trade agreement, as it will put us in a more favourable position than the rest of the EU countries.

If it were possible to have a free trade agreement with the EU that just included goods, the EEA and EFTA would have sorted it already.
However, as I have said, that is only 20% of our exports to the whole world.

A free trade agreement could be not based on free movement of people and same rules and regs for both sides- I suppose. But NOT with the EU- that has always been clear as a bell. Because that would unleash a whole series of 'pick and mix' in the EU- and this just cannot happen. Not within EU countries, and not with those with trade agreements, like Norway or Switzerland- for same reasons.

In 2014, the Swiss had a referendum to limit immigration (it is a tiny country, with limited space for living and growing crops- and has a much larger % of immigrants than UK). One difference being that Referendums are binding in Switzerland, unlike in the UK. The result mirrored the one in the UK, eg very small majority in favour, mainly german speaking Cantons. The Government had 2 years to implement- but then negotiations showed that the effect on the country would be very negative, making our reciprocal agreements on Trade, etc, with the EU to be void - as one of the major tenets is free movement within the EU and those with Trade Agreements with it. The Swiss Government, for the first time ever- was unable to put the results of a Referendum in practice, and it was quietly 'dropped'. Even the majority of those who had voted for it let it happen, bar a tiny minority of hard xenophobic UKIP types (called here SVP or UDC on French side). The EU made it clear that it could NOT in any way, shape or form- give way on that issue- as it would lead to other requests for same from the UK- and perhaps others later.

Orofessor Dougan explains all this really well.

youtu.be/R6F0inyJPDc

When it comes to milk- it is not so simple as 'just milk' - you have regulations on TB control and testing, movement of cattle, feeds, antibiotics, transport, husbandry, and so on and on.