Has the Conservative Party lost all sense of competence

Pray that we are not totally isolated when we end up the same ... bullied and used from all sides as the vassals of Putin, Trump, Saudi Arabia and the Chinese...

You obviously don't like the truth and just report fake new niggly. We were not conquered; we chose to be an equal partner. We have always had the same voting power as all the other countries. So where is this 'empire' niggly.

I wonder what happens to people who report lies and believe lies. Perhaps they end up destroying they country.

Tell that to Greece!

Whataboutery. What about Greece? It has nothing to do with empires. Did you ever study any history? This sort of post is just a reflection of the extraordinarily biased fake news we keep being offered. Let's hope 2018 see some truthful reporting, nationally and on here.

No need to be so aggressive and rude. For your information I passed history at O' and A' level, not that its any of your business and has little or nothing to do with my views concerning the EU.

This is not about your views on the EU but fact. The EU is not an empire it is a democratic political and economic union of 28 member states. No one is subjugated; countries joined using their own democratic systems. I am neither being aggressive or rude; you are simply trying to picture the EU as something it is not. I would always choose to challenge untruths.

When Trump says he " proud to have led the charge against the assault of our cherished and beautiful phrase. MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!!!" he is painting an untrue picture - no one led any such assault. It is a propagandising untruth. You are equally painting an untrue picture. If you do not want to be challenged don't say things that are not true just to add to the leavers propaganda.

When Hitler blamed the Jews it was a propagandising untruth. How far do you think it is reasonable to distort truth just to make your argument seem to be worthwhile. If you are right that this is the best thing for our country to do surely truth makes a better argument.

Gracesgran, this is an opinions forum, the clue is in the word opinion , there isn't a requirement to conform to an expectation or belief of any one else or to tell others that should only express their opinions in away that is acceptable to you . You are interfering with the flow of a thread by being so pedantic .please try to disagree with out being soooo critical & officious .

ohhps should read : a way, not away !!

Countries certainly joined the EU using their own democratic systems, no one is arguing about that. The problem as I see it is that what we democratically agreed to all those years ago bears little resemblance to that which we will eventually have wished upon us if Junker and his pals are to be believed. As this man said, either countries eventually accept the federation of the EU and government from Brussels or they can leave. I, and millions of others would rather be run by our own government not a federal one. Sorry if this opinion right or wrong offends people on here, but that is how I feel.

"The problem as I see it is that what we democratically agreed to all those years ago bears little resemblance to that which we will eventually have wished upon us if Junker and his pals are to be believed."

The power still belongs to the countries and always has. What you are actually objecting to is that the majority of countries may wish and vote for something you personally don't want. That is still democracy and you can still try and pursued them otherwise. Calling it an empire is simply incorrect and shows a gross misunderstanding of democracy.

I will happily discuss with anyone whether I want to be in a more federalised EU and why or why not but just throwing inaccurate insults around and expecting people to accept them as facts does not advance any discussion.

You - and millions of others - have voted to leave but that still does not turn the EU into an empire. You have expressed your opinion, to Parliament, who decide about these things. I and millions of others have expressed ours. Neither is wrong or right, it is a point of view.

Parliament is supposed to protect us from the "dictatorship of the majority". This is exactly what the leavers seem to believe is OK. They seem to expect Parliament to make policies or takes actions benefiting the small majority that voted on one day, without regard for the rights or welfare of the rest of its subjects. Fortunately Parliament and the Judiciary will not let that happen.

I think that those who say that the EU isn’t what we joined up to are completly ignoring the concept of change and progress.

Absolutely inevitable and necessary, and in the EUs case change and progress done with our government full approval and in cases where it didn’t approve we opted out.

Gracesgran, this is an opinions forum, the clue is in the word opinion

Where does it say that Bridgeit? The only word I can see that GN attaches to forum is "discussion". In a discussion you may agree, disagree, offer evidence for your point of view or deny that there is any supporting evidence to uphold someone else's. What should not happen is that people offer an opinion and expect it to be accepted as fact or that they try and close down a discussion that doesn't support their point of view.

I can really see why we are having issues with young people at university who think "safe spaces" means not having to listen to the other persons opinion. They have obviously picked this up from the older generation where, just as you do with You are interfering with the flow of a thread ... they, and you, attempt to close down opposition to the view on offer. You are also making very personal and derogatory remarks - not the way of a discussion surely?

But people do not think discussion/argument has to acknowledge the truth whitewave so they choose to ignore facts such as you put forward as they interfere with their opinion.

To me that seems like the quickest way to loose the democracy so many say they value. Weird really.

www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2017/12/23/robert-reich-the-big-picture/

Worth watching, as Murphy himself says.

Is this the same Robert Reich who wrote a book on his time with Clinton but it contained embellishments and invented dialogue so the paperback was released with the inventions revised or omitted ?

PEDANTIC =Too concerned with literal accuracy or formality, can be seen as a negative attribute. i.e. can detract from or stop a discussion

But I wasn't being pedantic Bridgeit. I was not saying it was a little bit wrong or grammatically incorrect, I was saying it was untrue. Something is either true or untrue surely and I think, if anyone backs their argument with an untruth, we have every right to point this out.

You, on the other hand, and now being very personal and very discourteous. Your comment is nothing at all with what we are discussing but everything to do with what you so rudely want to say about me as a person. Surely that contravenes GNHQ guidelines?

Interesting presentation Jen. For me the bit we need to most note is the change in the type of capitalism from stakeholder capitalism to shareholder capitalism. I know this is about the US but we have gone down the same route, unlike Germany where they have ensured they have protected their 'mittlestand'. These companies seek to continue over decades, not make a few people rich in a couple of years no matter what they do to everyone else.

This view was once the view held by Conservatives. Build for the future, grow for the future. Now we have the get rich quick version of conservatism - get rich not matter what it does to the country, the people or our future.

Well yes it I agree GG that we are detracting from the OP which must be very annoying to posters who wish to stick to the topic, I am not sure if my comments conttavene GN guidelines, but no doubt I will be informed if this is so, but the whole point of my reply to your posts was to point out that whether or not you realise it you too are stopping the flow of the thread by continually criticising people's delivery of their opinions , perhaps we are similar, but in opposite directions.

I did not say anything about detracting from the OP Bridgeit so you are not agreeing with me. This is a thread; I replied to a post. If you wish to criticise anyone for meandering of the OP please direct it at that poster not me. I don't think there is anything in the guidelines about replying to a change of subject. You have just decided we must abide by your made-up rules, rather than GN's, apparently.

You are unlikely to be contacted by GNHQ as I have not reported you and I doubt anyone else has. I was hoping you would understand what you were doing.

As I have said, several times, I was most definitely not criticising anyone's "delivery" of their personal opinion. I was commenting on what they were putting forward as a fact which was simply untrue. I am not sure how many times you want me to repeat that but will by please stop suggesting I did something else entirely when I patently didn't. You keep trying to make it personal so you can insult me. Please stop doing that.

GG and WW - you have the patient of saints - and have said it all better than I ever could. I wish you a very Happy New Year.

I so hope the insults and personal attacks will stop - they truly detract from OP and make it so unpleasant and counter-productive.

My views have absolutely nothing to do with other countries voting for things I don't want now or in the future. It has everything to do with being, in the future, part of federal state run by a central government, with our parliament reduced to the status of a local authority. This would be fine if a guaranteed democratic government can be assured for all time, but of course it can't. This would not be fine if a dictatorship of any sort should rear its ugly head. Sorry, but this is what I fear for my grandchildren, and this is why I voted to leave.

niggly, I totally disagre- and voted remain for my grandchildren.

But I'd like to thank you for giving your reasons and being prepared to agree to disagree.

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Of course you can't guarantee democracy niggly. That's why many of us come on here and fight for it against the tyranny of the recent and very small majority.

Your reasons for voting are your reasons so you certainly don't need to be sorry for them.