Has the Conservative Party lost all sense of competence

I was a founder member of the SDP jura but could not join the Lib Dems when they merged. I like a lot of what they say just as I like a lot of what the LP says currently, but I believe they are far more Liberal than Social Democratic (and Labour far more socialist then social democratic). Perhaps it will change but a slew of ex Labour and ex Tories moving towards them wouldn't convince me. It would depend on what their views have been up until now.

I think the jury is out on the Labour performance on Brexit personally.

At the moment, Brexit is massively more important than any other factor.

I agree - I really can't understand why Labour aren't further ahead in the polls considering the level of Government incompetence at the moment.

Owen Jones asks that question in the Guardian. Doesn't really have any answers though.

He says:
Over 70s voting intention apparently indicate a 50 point lead to Conservative party.
People in their 60s show a 30 point lead to the Conservatives.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/29/question-labour-must-answer-further-ahead-polls?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Eazybee I could write what you just have, word for word.
I have never worried about Labour being in power ever before.
What another poster Iam64? Says about Labour voters on the doorstep saying, ‘sorry, can’t vote for Corbyn’ echoes what I have heard and seen on tv from Labour MP’s and their canvassing staff.
The present government have a massive job in organising our withdrawal from the EU, and are riven by infighting because some MP’s refuse to get behind the PM.
Most MP’s voted for implementing article 50 ( on both sides of the House) but you could be forgiven for thinking that they didn’t.
Once a deal has been made with the EU, life ( in government) can get back to normal.

I agree GG2. I was also a founder member of the SDP but I stayed with the party after the merger although I got very fed up with people referring to us as Liberals and always put them right on that! However, I couldn't stomach the coalition with the Tories and abandoned the Lib Dems at that point. I know that they did manage to prevent the worst excesses of Tory policy, but after Tim Farron became leader, liberalism appeared to raise its woolly head. Vince Cable is - or has been - a Social Democrat, but I'm afraid it is now too late to assert that identity.

The answer, to what you are all saying about the polls, is simply Corbyn ( and McDonnell and Abbott) it’s not the LP it's just them.
Corbyn with the help of Momentum, has increased LP membership massively, but this does not translate into voting intentions from the people who are the backbone of Labour voters, who may not be all members.

I don’t have any great confidence in the shallow (sic) cabinet, but like many people I don’t think they could do much worse than the present bunch of incompetent buffoons.

anno. I totally understand and respect that.

But we are where we are - so what is the alternative?

Come a time when one has to find ways forwards out of this mess. I could not vote Labour due to Corbyn's views on EU and total refusal to fight a hard Brexit (which I truly believe to be a disaster and worse, for the UK)- and I could not vote Tory, before, and certainly now.

Abstain?

Brexit is indeed important but our domestic issues are important too. Just because the CP are ignoring them doesn't mean we all should.

Agreed - and yet. Brexit will affect those domestic issues for a very very long time - much longer than any GVT.

If Brexit turn out to be a disaster from the economical point of view, where will the money be found for our schools, NHS, etc, etc, etc. And if EU regs on workers' rights, conditions and wages, human rights, environmental issues, husbandry and animal welfare, etc, etc, etc. If we lose funds for medical research and drugs, research, innovation, etc, etc- that all our domestic issues will be in disarray.

It will jura but the parties will deal with the fall out from it according to their own ethos. As the scorpion almost pointed out to the frog, it is their nature.

At least with a difficultly underpowered government the current crew are having to look towards less far-right answers.

Well the Labour party gave a good showing in the last election considering everyone thought the Tories would be a shoo-in, especially that arrogant May herself. Trouble is these oldies who just love the Tory way of thinking.

if you look at the sort of policies in the Scandinavian countries and feel they would be good for the U.K., then you can easily vote for Corbyn

Which of the Scandinavian countries and which policies do you think are close to Corbyn?

The danger I think is that the Tories will be underestimated. Certain types of political players are in it for the long game, and people like Farage, Banks, Bannon etc are examples. Fascism is getting a foothold, and there are quite a few in the Tory party would welcome this. Remember if Brexit is a disaster, as it will surely be, the Tories only have to promise bread just as the Nazis did to win the vote. Mogg, Redwood etc are planning for this eventuality.

cold are you new to GN? If so welcome.

You wanted to know which Scandinavian country is close to Corbyns policies.

I think if you want to compare the two the easiest one is the Norwegian Labour Party. But I can give you more details if you are interested.

The arguement against seems to be that Corbyn's policies are derived from some so-called extreme of the political spectrum, that they are ‘hard left’ and ergo hopelessly idealistic and unworkable. To a Norwegian observer such as myself I find this characterisation puzzling. Mr Corbyn’s policy-platform, particularly in regard to his domestic policies are largely identical with the Norwegian Labour Party manifesto. Railway nationalisation, partial or full state ownership of key companies or sectors, universal healthcare provisions, state-funded house-building, no tuition fee education, education grants and loans to name but a few, enjoy near universal support among the Norwegian electorate, in fact, they are so mainstream that not even the most right-wing of Norwegian political parties would challenge them.

friday snap!

cold friday is clearly more knowledgable than me.

Friday that is so interesting. I don't think what Corbyn has suggested is at all extreme. I think it is just what we are comparing it with.

The Norweigan spending model is great for a country of 5 million people who are beneficiaries of a $1trillion investment fund - "owning on average 1.3 percent of every listed company in the world" according to the FT. The government is allowed to use 4% of that each year - that's $40 billion, to supplement their VAT rate of 25% and up to 48% marginal income tax rate.
Friday - if you're Norweigan, can you confirm the FT figures are correct?

Ooops! Norwegian obviously!

primrose I think that you are misunderstanding what we are saying.

What we are saying is that Corbyns policies are conventionally social democrat, and are mainstream in all Nordic countries. Of course there are differences between countries, it would be astounding if there wasn’t. But these policies enjoy almost universal support in these countries, which have some of the world’s highest living standards.

Surely this is a model to be emulated rather than sneered at?

It probably is whitewave although people may balk at the thought of income tax going up to pay for these policies. The taxpayers of the UK have got used to relatively low rates of income tax over many years and a sudden hike could cause some dissent.

I am not against this btw - that taxes should be increased to pay for public services but many voters may not feel the same.

I too cannot understand the fear about a Labour government.

It's not the fear about a Labour government - Labour would have 'walked' the last election with a different leader and his closest allies such as McDonnell.
Much of the electorate remains very suspicious of these two and Abbott, despite being traditional Labour voters.

Get rid of these and the influence of Momentum and Labour will be forming the next Government.

How would I know if those figures are exact?

And yes Jalima too many people in the UK simply aren't prepared to pay more in tax.