Labour supporters may be ignorant.

the level of health care provided is so much poorer than that in 1948
That's absolute rubbish trisher. You're comparing today with a fantasy that never existed.

"in 1948 when we were still suffering the huge cost of a war, when there were district nurses, mobile midwives and even home helps?"

And far fewer people. Many back then did not want to depend on any form of charity either and would struggle on without advocates or intervention. The NHS today is a totally different animal, carrying out research, transplants, IVF, and using expensive technology and treatment which keeps people alive.

Do you really think we can turn the clock back and compare the behemoth that is the NHS today with the nurses in capes going about on bikes and the quaint cottage hospitals we had of yore? It's a completely different set up now and brought about through progress as society has evolved. People died within the old set-up because of lack of advances. Today with the same illnesses they survive. And need on going care, which costs money and takes time.

Again, you have employed a left wing strategy of harping back to a glorious past which is unrecognisable today.

Primrose65 the things I have listed certainly existed. I have personal experience of them all. My mother had a hysterectomy in 1948 and was in hospital for a long period. In addition to all the things I listed I also had completely free nursery care. As for the progress I agree there have been huge strides, a hysterecomy now can be done in 24 or 48 hours, not the 2 months in hospital my mother needed. So yes there are huge new costs but savings as well. This perception that we can't afford proper health care is a myth perpetuated and promoted by those who not only dislike the NHS but who will make huge gains from its dissolution.

And a district nurse called in homes to change dressings on the elderly who were living with their children.

Comparing the demands on the NHS in 2017 with 1948 is pathetic sorry

Are you then saying that in 2017 we are not a richer society with more people earning more money then Annie? and if we are then why can we not afford the extra expense? It is a question of lack of will not of extra demand. None of my grandparents or great grandparents ever lived with their children and we are a long living family.

Of course it is a myth.

The far right including the media are particularly keen to see as small a state as possible, and this of course means tackling the NHS, which they see as an unnecessary state provision. However they have been scuppered as the U.K. population sensibly values the NHS highly. So bit by bit over the past 10 years this Tory Government has been starving it of funds, whilst using weasel words about how much they support the NHS and how much support they give to the idea.

We have choice, of course we do.

trisher, were they in a care home or didn't need round the clock care?

Yes we are wealthier now but we are also more self centred ,

This perception that we can't afford proper health care is a myth

Trisher, you are painting a picture that I do not recognise.

In recent years I have had the most superb care from the NHS and surgery which has saved my life. We have a marvellous NHS which we should treasure.

However, now in the outpatients department of my local hospital there is standing room only for all clinics - due to a massive population explosion of recent times. Labour's open door policies on immigration (much as we have to tread carefully when using the i word ) has been seen as a disaster for the man on the street and for society as a whole.

I quote - "The Labour party seemed to think everyone who came to the UK, working or not, could be housed and cared for. Net migration continued to increase after 1998 and rose even more sharply in the mid-2000s. David Blunkett, one of the most important politicians in terms of the development of migration policy[9], said in 2003 that there was ‘no obvious limit’ to the number of migrants that could come to the UK and that there was no limit to the number of people who could be housed in the country."

www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/355

Labour lost so much of its support because it did not recognise the concerns of the man on the street regarding its immigration policy. And we wonder why services are stretched when at the same time as we had massive population increase under a Labour government we didn't have more schools, homes and hospitals built to meet the demand.

And of course to have these concerns makes one 'racist' or 'bigoted' according to the left wing. Interesting Guardian article about the runaway immigration policy which was not thought through, alienated people and still haunts the Labour Party.

www.theguardian.com/news/2015/mar/24/how-immigration-came-to-haunt-labour-inside-story

Day6 I am pleased you have had excellent health care from the NHS. I wonder how many of the professional staff who treated you were in fact immigrants?
The NHS has for many years relied on nurses from other countries to maintain its staffing levels.
The myth I was speaking about is nothing to do with the excellent work done by NHS workers but is to do with the constant and widely repeated idea that in some way the proper treatment of any illness is beyond the capability of a service offering health care free of cost. A service that is quiety and effectively being undermined by this government.
Interesting that you needed to go back to 2015 to find a report about Labour and immigration a report incidentally that quotes research showing that immigrants contributed 10% more to the economy than they took from it. I would imagine more recent reports might find that a lack of nurses from the EU will be severely detrimental to the NHS.

whitewave -
The far right including the media are particularly keen to see as small a state as possible, and this of course means tackling the NHS, which they see as an unnecessary state provision

Whitewave once again you are making it up and spreading left-wing propaganda.

The dear NHS is political football used by the left. The NHS is precious to all and any party which dismantled it would cease to exist. Both the Conservative and Labour party know this and Labour has created the myth that they protect it whilst the government seek to destroy it.
That is a complete myth, given privatisation of some NHS services began under a Labour government, on Tony Blair's watch.

This, from "A mandate from the Government to NHS England:" (April 2017 to March 2018)
Presented to Parliament pursuant to Section 13A(1) of the National Health Service Act 2006.

The Government is committed to providing for patients and the public the highest quality,
most compassionate health and care service in the world, built on the guiding principles
of the NHS: that access to health care is based on need and not the ability to pay, and
that services are comprehensive and available to all

www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/601188/NHS_Mandate_2017-18_A.pdf

Whilst immigrants are needed in the NHS they also need housing

day6 myth making busy I see.

There isn’t a single clinician or NHS manager would agree with you over immigration explosion argument.

Severe lack of funding and severe lack of staff are the reasons for your overflowing A&E departments. Together with this government’s enormous cuts to local government and knock on effect to social care.

Of course the far right has been busy scapegoating - it’s what they do. For the working classes who have seen their communities eroded and traditional work gone, they are doing exactly what they have always done looked for someone or something to blame. It wasn’t difficult for the far right to persuade them of the myth of immigration rather than the truth, which is of course structural and inevitable change to the world of work.

"Day6 I am pleased you have had excellent health care from the NHS. I wonder how many of the professional staff who treated you were in fact immigrants? "

I am not sure what that has to do with the discussion given I am from immigrant stock too. I am in favour of people with skills working in the uk no matter where they come from.

However, let's not pretend the wave of unprecedented immigration under Labour has somehow saved the country. That is a fallacy, another the left would have us believe is true.

Do you believe we should have open borders and no control over who enters the UK, or the numbers of people coming to live in the UK?

Do you think we could cope given you like to tell us over and over again people are homeless, live on the streets, use food banks, can't get medical treatment etc, etc, etc, etc.

I have worked in multicultural inner cities all my life btw, and worked alongside wonderful people from all over the world, before you start castigating all those who believe we need a controlled immigration policy.

trisher "I would imagine more recent reports might find that a lack of nurses from the EU will be severely detrimental to the NHS."

Well, you'll be pleased to know that for years it has been exceedingly difficult to get on University Nurse Training courses. They are always over subscribed.

What we must do is ensure that those nurses we train do actually give their expertise to the NHS instead of becoming agency nurses or going into the private sector which is more lucrative.

That is a loophole that needs closing according to my neighbour, a nursing sister in the NHS.

I'm sure nursing courses may have been oversubscribed in the past Day6- more attractive to many because of the bursary given- but don't worry this government has solved that. As for EU nurses read what the King's Fund says www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-nhs-nurses-numbers-drop-first-time-eu-staff-a7995366.html

You might also wonder why this government is happy to see nurse numbers reduced and patient safety compromised but of course it wouldn't be anything to do with them undermining the NHS would it? Just left wing propaganda isn't it!!!! Could this also possibly be why they put so much pressure on them they choose to work for agencies???- of course not

Day6

From page 78 of Direct Democracy: An Agenda for a New Model Party published in 2005 and co-authored by Jeremy Hunt

Our ambition should be to break down the barriers between private and public provision, in effect denationalising the provision of health care in Britain, so extending to all the choices currently available only to the minority who opt for private provision.

From article in The Independent 3rd November 2017 about the proposals to restructure the NHS by introducing Accountable Care Organisations (ACOs)

Legal action is being taken against Jeremy Hunt and the Department of Health over their proposals to restructure the NHS, The Independent can reveal. Plans have been tabled to convert the NHS into a public/private enterprise, which critics say is based upon the US private health insurance-based system. Senior health professionals and campaigners have now come together to take legal action and demand a judicial review, to ensure full parliamentary scrutiny of the proposals.

Day6

2.8% of NHS spending went to private providers in 2006/07, rising to 4.4% in Labour’s last full year in government and 4.9% in the first year of the Coalition. In 2015/2016 it was 10.7%.

Source fullfacts.org following a David Davis appearance on Question Time in May 2017. He incorrectly claimed the proportion of the NHS budget spent on private providers rose much more quickly under the last Labour government than it has since then.

Tell me again that the NHS is in a safe pair of hands. You can call posters rabid left wingers until the cows come home, but I hope when you look in the mirror you can see the rabid right winger looking back at you.

PS Day6 please note I do not use anecdotes to make my point, just verified facts.

To be fair Wilma, it was Trisher who brought the term rabid left winger into the discussion, she said it of herself

Wilma

a) Article written in 2005.

b) "Plans have been tabled to convert the NHS into a public/private enterprise, which critics say is based upon the US private health insurance-based system".

How strange so few of us know about these 'plans'? How strange it hasn't been widely reported? I would have thought we'd have national uproar by now if there had been a plan. People of all political persuasions would be outraged and rightly so. It's not a vote-winning policy either, is it? Biased reporting methinks which you choose to believe.

c) You can call posters rabid left wingers until the cows come home.

I didn't. Show me where I did?

You however choose to call me 'rabid'. Nice. See what I mean about aggression?

I have no problem with the NHS having more money, but I do have a problem with that coming from general taxation.

Why not charge people the cost of their service if they need treatment because they are drunk? That's an immediate £3.5 billion straight into the NHS or a drop in demand for A&E.

I'm very happy to pay for illness, less happy to pay for people whose reckless behaviour or 'lifestyle choices' become my financial burden.

Day6 If you are really as ignorant as you pretend about the Tories' plans for the NHS then I really am sorry for you. You might read this
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-hunt-health-department-nhs-legal-action-americanise-privatisation-customers-id-pay-a8033986.html

Primrose65 I don't drive, should I then expect people who do and who are involved in an accident caused by their careless driving to pay for their own treatment?

Day6 I take back what I said about rabid left wingers.

My first quote wasn't from an article. It's from a publication which was for sale on Amazon and it was republished in 2009. It is well known that Jeremy Hunt co-authored it, along with Douglas Carswell, Michael Gove and David Gauge (DWP Minister) amongst others.

It's now available as a free download on this blog here

I don't know why you don't know about ACOs, but it could be because of the amount of coverage Brexit is getting, but it's much more likely to be because it is being introduced as part of the NHS Five Year Forward View initiative. The problem with this initiative is that it is happening without full parliamentary scrutiny. Change is happening piecemeal without the need for Parliament voting on the changes.

You can read more about this here

Jeremy Hunt has visited the US several times as Health Secretary to see the US health care system works and this greatly concerns me.

Sorry to post anecdotal evidence but I know several people who have had N.H.S. treatment in private hospitals, our local A. & E. Is bring run by a private company, my glaucoma checks are done in a privately run clinic within the N.H.S. eye hospital. Tell me these aren't a creeping privatisation.

Of course they aren't Morgana they are very real examples of how safe the NHS is in Tory Hands!