Misguided Remainers and the EU.

Refugees are people fleeing armed conflicts or persecution

An asylum seeker is someone who claims to be a refugee but whose claim hasn’t been evaluated. This person would have applied for asylum on the grounds that returning to his or her country would lead to persecution on account of race, religion, nationality or political beliefs.

Migrants choose to move not because of a direct threat or persecution but mainly to improve their lives:
Finding work
Seeking better education
Reuniting with family

Unlike refugees who cannot safely return home, migrants can return home if they wish. This distinction is important for governments, since countries handle migrants under their own immigration laws and processes.

The European Union - the main end-point in the current crisis - has its own rules. They do not contradict the UN but introduce a complication. They say that refugees’ applications for asylum must be handled in the EU country where they first arrive.

whitewave
Why do you think that we are seeing a rise in far right governments: immigration.
How did the AfD win seats in the German parliament: immigration.
I will have to read up on the difference between migrants and refugees as the definition has become somewhat blurred over the past 20 years. This could take a while.

petra are you aware of the difference between migrants and refugees.

I’m talking about far right governments. Funny how Brexiters focus on immigrants

Not forgetting
Hungary
Czech Republic
Slovakia
That's an awful lot of people who have no appetite for their migrant quota.
Merkel didn't ask those countries what their opinions were when she invited 1 mil plus into Europe. Now these governments, with the backing of their electorate are showing her what their opinions are, as are many of her fellow Germans.

And Poland

Given that Austria now has a far right party in coalition government there, it is most probably because of the EU, and the migrant crisis.The EU telling them to take migrants,
When there is no appetite for it there.

"The only defence against this would seem to me to be a united Europe which, hopefully, can temper such attitudes."

But it hasn't, has it? As the article in the OP suggests, the EU has provided the engine room for extremism. People are unhappy, hence the rise and rise of these extreme groups gaining ground in national elections.

You are clutching at straws Nandalot.

The article may be an old, but the point is it highlights the secrecy of the way in which negotiations take place (MEPS had to demand that documentation was made available to them) and it confirms the shocking truth that corporation greed is driving such negotiations, for the benefit of shareholders and not for citizens of the EU.

I quote " What we do know is that 92% of those involved in the consultations have been corporate lobbyists. Of the 560 lobby encounters that the commission had, 520 were with business lobbyists and only 26 (4.6%) were with public interest groups. This means that, for every encounter with a trade union or consumer group, there were 20 with companies and industry federations.
This trade deal is a full-frontal assault on democracy

What I am able to reveal from my visit to the library is that I left without any sense of reassurance either that the process of negotiating this trade deal is democratic, or that the negotiators are operating on behalf of citizens."

Given the secrecy of the EU and it's labyrinthine make-up, let's not pretend what goes on in Brussels has, all of a sudden, become transparent.

Whilst I find it hard to stomach much that Melanie Phillips writes , it is true that the far right is gaining a foothold in Austria. However, this is not the fault of the EU. Heinz- Christian Strache’s xenophobic outpourings and stance seem to be very similar to those of Donald Trump’s. The only defence against this would seem to me to be a united Europe which, hopefully, can temper such attitudes.

Day 6, the article by Molly Scott Cato to which you provide a link is rather an old one, dating from Feb 2015. TTIP was trying to align EU standards with American ones. The very market that many Brexiteers want us to explore. But TTIP is dead in the water because of the European public’s concern that American standards are not as rigorous as the EU’s. Moreover, surely the point being made about the secrecy of the negotiations could apply equally to how our government is trying to approach the Brexit negations.

All is well in the EU? You are kidding yourselves. Let us not pretend the EU is a happy institution.

This policy paper (Nov 2017) suggesting reforms by Yves Bertoncini, European Affairs Consultant sounds like a desperate attempt to heal a broken continent.

" ....due to size effects the members of a European Parliament limited to 751 seats cannot by nature enjoy such intense and close relations with their fellow citizens (roughly 500 million) as national MPs. These reforms do confirm, however, the EU’s constant progress to reach a democratic horizon that is still to be conquered.

What a telling final sentence.

www.institutdelors.eu/media/democraticcrisesintheeu-bertoncini-oct17.pdf?pdf=ok

"A striking political divide: not Brussels against
the citizens but citizens against citizens."

The recent intensification of criticism against “Brussels despotism” has occurred alongside an unprecedented
heightening of public debate caused by the Eurozone crisis and the refugee crisis, across the EU.

The contrast is striking between the denunciation of a “Europe”which is said to be cut off from its citizens and the incredible number of parliamentary votes and national elections which have placed European decisions at the forefront.

The debates resulting from the recent crises have in fact played a part rarely seen before in the democratic
way in which decisions are made at EU level.

The EU has admittedly become much less popular with its citizens during the Eurozone crisis, and subsequently
during the refugee crisis. The EU’s image, the trust placed in it and the direction it is taking have been assessed
to be in sharp decline among citizens in most EU Member States.

This drop in popularity, which was curbed
over the last period from 2015 to 2017, was all the more striking as it was fuelled by criticism from diametrically
opposed positions: criticism of the financial assistance granted to some Eurozone countries voiced in creditor
countries such as Germany, Finland and Slovakia, alongside criticism of austerity expressed in countries such as Greece, Ireland and Portugal in return for EU and IMF financial assistance. The same dynamic of diametrically
opposed criticism was revived when the refugee crisis hit, with public opinion denouncing the lack of control in
some border countries (Greece, Italy, etc.), the lack of solidarity between European countries (Germany, Sweden,
etc.), or on the contrary the solidarity organised by the EU (Poland, Hungary, etc.).

This twofold criticism is naturally harmful to the European construction, but above all it reveals “horizontal” divides between European citizens, much more than a “vertical” divide between the EU and its citizens.

Such horizontal divides have made the adoption of decisions more complex for national and European authorities; and were sometimes accompanied by the prevalence of hackneyed stereotypes (Greeks = lazy; Germans =Nazis, etc.), stereotypes which are often conveyed by the political elites as much as by the citizens.
They have resulted in the adoption of decisions based on compromises deemed to be unsatisfactory by all. Yet these
divides have reflected or continue to reflect the heterogeneous nature of the interests and perceptions of citizens of EU Member States, “united in diversity”: these are much more of a danger to the EU’s cohesion than
yet another demonstration of its democratic deficit."

The EU - Plastering over the cracks methinks.

Yes my interpretation and just as your interpretation is that remainers are misguided souls unable to hear the gospel of Brexit. Good that you will still travel in Europe and that you can afford the appalling exchange rate. Germany, France and even The UK have been stronger economies in the EU than they were in the 1970s .

Posters ‘ not taking it’ seems to be your buzz phrase Maryeliza when posters are merely responding to posts.... I do wonder sometimes how old you actually are
( escapee from Mumsnet?)

Susied It’s the Brexiteers who want to turn back the clock to making Britain great again, being top dog and putting two fingers up at Johnny Foreigner'

That is YOUR blinkered interpretation. It fits your agenda, but it's not the truth.

Oh lemon are you feeling a bit grumpy? Never mind, it’ll soon be Christmas. You really can’t take it can you?

Well the EU is demonstrating quite clearly to us right now that money talks louder than ideology. The EU needs our market.

It is also highlighting that no EU propaganda passes the late simple test for democratic accountability - 'What do we do if we wish to get rid of you?'

You pay through the nose. Billions, just to talk about leaving.

I think it’s you living in the past suzied I mean come on, Johnny Foreigner?!
I think you will find that most of us have travelled widely in Europe, love many countries ( I particularly love Italy and Spain) and will not stop travelling or liking anything from Europe.
It’s not Anything from Europe we dislike, but being run from Brussels, actually, dictated to.I can see other countries
(Not the poorer ones though, it’s like winning the lottery for them! ) being very dissatisfied with the EU in the coming years.

It’s funny how Brexit has become the “truth” like some religious cult. If they were so sure of their beliefs they wouldn’t have to bog on about how it’s such a wonderful revelation and how non believers are heretics. It’s the Brexiteers who want to turn back the clock to making Britain great again, being top dog and putting two fingers up at Johnny Foreigner. May knows that leaving the EU is extremely damaging and she also knows that leaving the single market and the customs union is economic suicide but she goes ahead with it because she is trapped. May, the Conservative party and the entire country have been hijacked by a bunch of EU hating fanatics and the price will be a broken UK.
Perhaps she is hoping that 2018 will be the year when she is forced to admit that it's a Norway type deal or bust.

Maryeliza54
Thank you for your recognition of my endeavours

What makes me laugh is that they constantly moan on about others being juvenile!

You can put your little recipes on here Maryeliza the thread takes up to a thousand posts ( but you may look a bit sad.)

Any Christmas songs by Vera Lynn?

The question is maryeliza can you take it?
Most on here don’t get our knickers in a twist like you do.
Day6 I will read this if not pay walled.Luckygirl reccommended a book ( on thread called Brexit Book) which was on Kindle yesterday for 99p, it may still be a low price.I bought it, but won’t now have time for reading until after Christmas.

Now they are trying to derail thread with silly posts how childish

Yes, it's noticeable ninny.

I suppose when you cannot refute the truth you have to resort to a juvenile Remainer smokescreen.

Interesting, isn't it?