Interesting? Frightening?

Good post Pogs. Occasionally threads appear where the underlying gist seems to imply that nationalism, racism and xenophobia are an exlusive preserve of the English. When that assertion is challenged, it usually triggers an aghast hands in the air faux protest from the OP, along the lines of "these are not my words, thoughts, I was merely quoting the words of whoever"......

Thanks for that, Granny23. So it was actually Scottish Dawn and the SDL protesting, not the EDL?

Scots, not English people?

But used as anti-English propaganda by Scots - would that be by the Scottish Nationalists?

Ironic if so.

Granny 23

Your OP title is ' Interesting? Frightening? '

I would say both but not for the reasons you would hope I may be agreeing with you upon.

Your OP states : " Having suffered a visit to our small local town in Central Scotland, from the EDL to protest that etc. " and you provide a link which as far as I can see mentions nothing about the protest or the EDL you mention but it's headline tells you what you want us to read and presumably the point you are trying to make. The headline :

'Brexit unleashed an English Nationalism that has damaged the Union with Scotland for good'

So I have to say from the start of reading this thread I thought you were connecting Brexit with the EDL and most certainly the connection was ' English ' Nationalism! It gave rise to those who continually want to put the English down as one poster says " we have been a xenophobic country for generations." followed by other usual words and phrases Empire/Jingoism/WW 11 /English worse than Scots etc.

You must have thought ' Oh good , job done '.

Then it became noted that your intention was nothing more than to make your opinion known what you feel about the English and when asked by Maggiemaybe for evidence of the EDL presence you failed to provide it and we were informed by your other link it was the SDL and Scottish Dawn no, mention of the EDL being present at the protest .

So I find it 'interesting' that you cannot call the SDL out for what it/they are but you refer to it / them as an EDL offshoot . They are Scottish whether you like it or not .

I am more than happy to be corrected but as far as I can see not one of your links mentions the EDL were present or reported to have travelled by road or rail although you insist this is the case and state :

"BUT the vast majority at the rally were EDL who came by train or Coach from across the border. "

Forgive me but if there were a vast majority of English speaking protesters holding EDL banners , I believe one of your links said there were 40 protesters? , would that not be reported in the links you have provided which make no mention of it. One link does say : " it ’s fair to say the pitiful turnout from the SDL, especially with so many clearly displaying flags from English groups, doesn’t suggest they’re going anywhere fast but it’s still concerning they’re organising at all.". Displaying an English Group Flag does not mean that group was present or being held by anybody from that group e.g English.

' Frightening ' is what I feel about the obvious dislike some posters display toward the English and in my opinion it did not start with Brexit it started at the time of the Scottish Referendum, we have plenty of threads to read back on and knowledge of that time fresh in our memories to know how heated that got at times.

Racism/xenophobia are words attributed rather oddly to only Brexit and the English by many but they most certainly do not belong to Brexit or the English they cover many topics /political persuasions and nations and to deny that or put ones head in the sand is pure denial but handy to continue with an individuals campaigns I suppose.

It would help to know the full facts. Councils have a list of people waiting for council houses. When a house becomes vacant it is offered to the family at the top of the list. However, priority is given to those who are officially homeless. What happened in this case? Did the Syrians 'jump the queue', or were they classed as homeless? If they were given a house which others were more entitled to, then there is a genuine grievance which should be investigated. Marching through the streets shouting racist slogans doesn't generate sympathy.

The Orange Order is a Protestant organisation which is anti-Catholic. I can't see how this matter involved them.

rationalwiki.org/wiki/Scottish_Defence_League

I have no intention of stirring up animosity between Scots and English People - my ire is entirely directed at these very small ultra right organisations who seem to have been empowered by issues raised during the Brexit Campaign. In particular, I am angry that their hateful message has raised its ugly head in my neck of the woods which has until recent years been mercifully free of this type of public hate speech. I am sure there are communities, throughout the UK, who are in a similar position, now encountering racism and fascism in their midst, where none existed before.

I only mentioned that many of the rabble that descended on our town were EDL rather than SDL members to illustrate that they were not local people concerned about local issues but rather band wagon jumpers taking advantage of any opportunity to voice their message. I would put Scottish Dawn in the same category (BTW since this happened back in March, Scottish Dawn has been banned as being a terrorist organisation)

I am mortified that my word is not taken as truth by fellow Gransnetters and I am accused of twisting the facts. How do I know that these thugs were EDL? 1) because they carried banners from EDL branches and 2 (the coaches they arrived in had been hired from English firms - it said so on the side. How do I know that there are only 2 publicly known SDL members in the County? Because there are only 2 members who spoke/write regularly to the local paper and only the same 2 known to be local people in the demo. If there are any other members in the area then they are keeping very quiet about it.

Here is a link I found via google which mentions both the EDL presence and the busses, though I hasten to add that I am in no way endorsing all the comments on that blog. athousandflowers.net/2017/03/12/scottish-defence-league-outnumbered-in-alloa/

I do not know how to copy and paste 2 links in the one post, so I will add another below, which points out how small the SDL is and how EDL members regularly come up to boost their numbers.

So interesting to read sensible posts about multiculturalism and the EU. I was married to a Jamaican for 15 years and have two wonderful half cast children and four beautiful grandchildren. They all have good jobs and pay much tax. One is married to a lovely Polish girl he met before they joined the EU. Obviously the knee jerk reaction was to call old English people racist for wanting to leave the EU, but as things have progressed I think they are seeing a wider view of the world and Europe. Lovely to see this reflected in the thoughtful posts here. I voted leave purely on political grounds and not wanting my grandchildren to be blighted by the Euro and being conscripted into an army patrolling the Russian border and putting down our lovely Greek and Spanish friends we have holidayed with for years. We are over crowded and you only have to try to get anywhere on our roads or trains to see that, let alone the NHS collapsing under the strain. It is nothing to do with race, only numbers. The UK despite its bad press here for being a despotic colonialist nation, is still the 'go to' country, and we should be proud of that. However, we need to allow our new friends time to build a life and settle in before we just throw the doors open.

I've just come back on this thread to support maggie. A post of mine is missing between my last 2 posts and it was about the presence of the EDL in Alloa. I was typing on the M6 at the time and didn't notice it hadn't been saved.

I couldn't find anything to show the EDL was at the SDL demonstration in Alloa and I am sure it would have been reported if it was represented (the photos show the National Front was there). Apparently the protesters were out numbered 4 to 1 by counter-protesters. I'm not convinced by the OP is not trying to stir up trouble and I regret posting at all on this thread.

Granny23, the local press reports to which you yourself link clearly state that the demonstrators were from the Scottish Defence League and Scottish Dawn. You are the only one claiming that EDL members were there. And as for there only being 2 SDL members in your county....how on earth would you know? I don't personally know any EDL members, but that doesn't mean there aren't any in Yorkshire.

I find this whole thread very worrying. The sole point of it seems to be to stir up animosity, if not xenophobia, and to blame "the English" for a situation that was an entirely Scottish problem. I for one am out.

MaggieMay As I stated earlier there are only 2 known SDL members in the County and Yes a few other SDL people from elswhere in Scotland. There was also a small contingent from Scottish Dawn (from the photographs there appears to be 6 or 8 of them wearing balaclavas and sunglasses. BUT the vast majority at the rally were EDL who came by train or Coach from across the border.

Some posters have moved on to talk about the loss of cultural identity and I suppose that is what troubles me. In our partly industrial, partly rural area there has never been a big catholic/protestant problem and certainly not any inter racial conflict. It is not that we are insular but rather that we do not have a large population of any specific minority ethnic group nor any areas where there are more of 'them' than 'us'. Immigrants, refugees do integrate into the local community rapidly simply because they could not survive in isolation - the language of the playground is Scots and of the classroom is English, there are no specialist food markets, or fabric shops. Even the Chinese and Indian restaurants/take aways have menus geared to Scottish tastes rather than authentic cuisine. This is all very different from the situation in big cities and places like Bradford and YET the media would have us believe that racism and intolerence is rife here.

e.g. there was a spate (well 3 to be exact) of robberies in late opening corner shops which were deemed to have racist overtones. At one of the trials the shopkeeper disputed the racist elements. He stated that he had no objection to being called a 'Paki' as he was one and proud to be so. However, it was the addition of the word B*****d which upset him as it cast undeserved aspersions on his Mother's character. Then he went on to point out that as almost all the corner shops in the county were owned by families from Pakistan, if you were intent on robbing a late opening shop it would be hard to avoid there being a person of Pakistani ethnicity therein.

This is my experience of life in our part of Scotland where people from aw the airts are welcomed and rapidly see themselves as Polish Scots, Scots Asians, New Scots, Scots by adoption, or just Scots. I would hate to see a change where distrust and bad feeling develops between my friends and neighbours, fuelled by the blatant bigotry and prejudice which has come out from the shadows, become common currency ever since the Brexit Campaign started.

Would like to mention that there has been no trouble with Travelling People here since the Council set up a decent, well regulated permanent site for them, where they pay rent and usually have two vans so that they can leave one to hold their place when they go travelling in the other. Granny and the kids will stay there until the school holidays and then join their parents on the road. A simple and cost neutral solution to a years old problem.

Luckygirl , your post at 15.32 today.

I totally agree .

Thank you, lemongrove!

About the travellers, there has been so much trouble with them recently that local MPs and council officers have called for a change to the Irish system. In Ireland you can't just bring your home and park it wherever you like, on school playing fields, parks, open spaces anywhere. It is a crime whereas with us, it's only a civil offence. Reason why a lot of them are here although they own property in Ireland!

We have freedom of religion in England - we fought our religious wars a few centuries ago. Many of the recent immigrants, however, don't allow anyone to leave the religion they brought with them.

Just read back through the thread. There are no rough sleepers in Clackmannanshire. Lucky Clackmannanshire! There are rough sleepers in Essex. the local homeless charity for which my DH does a bit of part-time volunteering, has at least 200 temporary beds every night, and there are still people without shelter on what is said to be the coldest night of the year. Some have drifted out from London. Some are ex-service. Some have various problems - marriage break-up, drug users/recoverers, mental health, you name it. There but for the grace of God...

Luckygirl personally I don't have a problem with the EU moving towards federalism, but I think it is a far from efficient organisation. I say this as someone who was involved with the EU in many capacities and it's very demoralising to find out something is delayed as a result of a deal done behind closed doors about another matter. All the countries feel the same way though which is why reform is underway.

You're right about the choices being with it or against it, which is no way to carry on. In an effort to appear fair we have the presidency regularly changing and as for moving between Brussels and Strasbourg twice a year... The member states know that this might have worked with a small number of members, but it's completely impractical with 28 plus the extra countries like Norway.

Now that the German elections are over it looks like the French and German are ready to continue the discussions over the EU reform project. As far as I can tell the fly in the ointment is the different positions of the EU Commission (especially Junker) and the EU Parliament.

I'm going to leave this thread now because all that's happening is the same old arguments have started.

Another excellent post Margrete

I confess to being an English nationalist but I would never go to Scotland, or NI or Wales, and tell them what they should do. England is heavily over-populated. Homelessness has increased over the last couple of years. We have just not got the space, or the resources, to accommodate everyone who thinks that they will have a 'better life' by arriving here by whatever means possible.

Almost every day I read some report which convinces me that too many people arrived over too short a period, without thought as to where they would live, what they would live on etc etc. 'Multiculturalism' was something that was forced on us. Everyone else's culture is not only equal to ours, but superior to ours. We've even been told that we English 'have no' culture of our own!

I could give so many examples to illustrate what I'm saying. Where to start, where to stop?

Bradford is a case in point. I delivered babies there in the 1970s. Just read an article about the situation there - it's almost like two nations.

Our national day, St George's, is laughed at and anyone flying a red and white flag is automatically labelled 'racist'. Not so St Andrew or St David.

The travellers. Their 'culture' - don't get me started. Locally we've had so much trouble recently with them pitching up and setting up home wherever they see fit, the most recent was just before Christmas when they chose to occupy an Asda car park.

On Christmas Day we passed a man on the hard shoulder of the M25 with his prayer mat out, praying! We had just come from church where we prayed. This guy had his hazard flashers out and was on his knees on the hard shoulder. One of themost dangerous places to be, as well as illegal.

I've heard of potential immigrants in northern France who have been offered asylum there, but they insist it's 'England' that they want. I've seen interviews with them - 'in England I'll be given a house...' Note the word 'given'. Tell that to the ex-servicemen and ex-prisoners locally who cannot be given a house because there aren't any.

When I thought of going to work in France some years ago I was turned down because my French was 'pas couramment' i.e. not fluent enough. It would have become more fluent with use, but that was ignored. I know of people who have lived in England for decades, long enough to draw their pension, and still don't speak a word of English. They live their lives in little enclaves and we are supposed to respect that because it's their 'culture'.

Just to finish, my darling husband's grandparents DID come here just over a century ago. They really were fleeing persecution and in 1940 there were plans held by the Nazis as to what was to happen to them when/if the invasion had been successful. Think Drancy then Auschwitz.

But they all learned English, brought their skills and trades with them, earned their living and became good citizens. Can't quarrel with that. My husband waves his St George's flag with the rest.

lucky
You have put succinctly how many leavers feel, thank you ?

radicalnan wrote "What is wrong with some xenophobia?"
That's my view too, plus I agree with the rest of your post.
It exists in all nations and cultures, as far as I know.

Excellent post Lucky

Wilma - I think that the general drift of the EU is towards federalism (which clearly also involves free movement - as it already does) but that the motives for this are woolly and vague. It is a "high" principle that lacks detail, and unfortunately pushes those who do not agree with this into being labelled as racist or Little Englanders. There are sound reasons for questioning the direction in which the EU is moving, and it is a cause for concern in many member countries, some of whom will be watching Brexit with great interest (which is also why the EU feels the need to give Britain a bad time over it).

The saddest thing is that ideas that emanate from the EU cannot be questioned in a calm and reasoned way - there is this sense that if you are not for it, then you must be against it. The reasonable stance of recognising some of the good things it has done, but also calling into question its faults and failures results in people being vilified. It is as if the aim of European peace and co-operation can only be achieved via the EU and anyone who believes otherwise or is prepared to question this received wisdom must by definition be on the side of Hitler.

Whilst I would be the first to agree that far right racist organisations have jumped on the Brexit bandwagon, and that this is highly unfortunate, to say the least, it is a very unhealthy situation when reasoned concerns about how the EU operate cannot be expressed or discussed openly

I remember mu parents telling me about the black shirts and Mosely. Same thing now surely and look what happened to him and his cronies never got anywhere.
As long as we have people who care about others they will never get anywhere.

What is wrong with some xenophobia? If we were a tribe, along the Amazon, Sting and Gelodof and silly Allen would be fund raising for us to see off the invaders. People would be demandig that we live out lives un contminated by other cultures.

It is human nature to want to keep things as they are, this constant influx of new cultures is destabilising and the de -nudeing other countries, of its youg and strong is cutural rape....but hey ho I suppose people like to think they occupy a moral high ground without considering all the ramifications.

The rest of it is religions and those conflicts have gone on for millenia, its part of how it all works and that is part of human nature too.

Thanks for that, Granny23. So it was actually Scottish Dawn and the SDL protesting, not the EDL?

Scots, not English people?

quizqueen with respect it would be helpful if you could back up your statement with facts. If you're not sure where to find out the facts I can suggest you start here

Immigration - Fullfacts.org

Maggie I understand what you mean about the relevance of education a 100 years ago, but those attitudes were passed down from generations to generations, all be it in a diluted form. The problem is that a lot of people are still looking back at the past, so we need to challenge the myths. The dilution continues, but not fast enough for me.

Another report of the rally:

brignews.com/2017/03/11/anti-refugee-protesters-met-with-resistance-as-the-sdl-rally-in-alloa/

Maggiemaybe You asked about the rally in Alloa and why it occured - I'll try to be brief:

The LA, Clackmannanshire Council, which happens to be the smallest LA in Scotland, agreed to take a generous quota of Syrian Refugee Families. Plans were progressed to accomodate the families together in a redundant Sheltered Housing/Care Complex which did not meet current Standards, using the money from the Home Office to upgrade the premises but this plan was rejected as unsuitable and the Council then identified some existing council housing stock, empty awaiting upgrading, which was refurbished ready for the new arrivals.

Meanwhile a private builder had built a small Estate of private houses down by the riverside but was struggling to sell them - not surprising as the houses, which looked lovely at the front, backed directly onto the Council's Coup and recyclying centre, with consequent noise, dust, etc. The Council decided to add a few of these empty houses to the Council's housing stock, at a reduced price and using the Resettlement Funds for the Syrians.

That is when there were protests via the local paper that the Syrians were being given brand new houses, while some local people had been waiting on the Housing List for years. A woman, living in England, whose mother had been waiting ages for suitable disabled adapted housing, within the County, led the campaign, which rapidly grew wings and referred to disabled ex-servicemen sleeping rough on the streets (Statistics and observation with our own eyes confirm that there are no Rough Sleepers in Clackmannanshire and that the Council's homeless provision is more than adequate.

This women started a petition (later withdrawn) which attracted 2000 signatories, very few of whom were locals and caught the interest of the 2 (Yes 2) locally based members of the EDLs Scottish Offshoot the SDL. The 'outrage' was spread via social media throughout the UK .
A march and rally was planned by them to congregate at the train station, march down the High Street and through town to the Council Offices, and then down to the refugees houses at the riverside.

The Police and LA vetoed this plan and the protesters were instead confined in a pen at the top of the high street (with a simalar pen at the bottom of the street for Counter protesters. Nonetheless there were imported armed Police gaurding the Council Buildings and the Refugees Homes. A Charity organised a Day Out for the Syrian familes, to ensure their safety.

The local YES group decided that a counter protest would be counter productive, best not to give them the oxygen of publicity, but various far left and Peace groups turned up and the two sides shouted and gestured at each other from their respective pens. The town Centre shops closed for the day and the vast majority of local people stayed well away.

www.alloaadvertiser.com/news/15091769.Scottish_Defence_League_to_march_in_Alloa/