Corbyns Torque

whitewave .....it’s obvious that the thread is making you angry and I guess you would be happier when it reaches 1000, however another thread can be immediately started and very likely will be. Oh the invective being chucked around on here because there is criticism of Corbyn and McDonnell and Momentum! As for using the word specious, is it the word for the day?

Yes, I couldn’t agree more Primrose.

GGM2 eventually you will learn that any goady/ baity posts I see from you will not have any affect at all on me, much less prompt an angry reply which you can then pounce on via the ‘report button’ ? until that day dawns do carry on with the wooden spoon.

Who is blaming Momentum for the ills of the country GG?
People are blaming self-identified Momentum supporters for their own violent actions.

I think you're certainly the expert on manipulation, with your gaslighting posts!

^Another silly and OTT post from you GG sadly.^(Lemon)

So now you see it as "silly" that some learn from history Lemons? Now it is "silly" to understand that nothing is made any better by finding a group you can blame for all the ills of the country.

I would rather my post is seen as silly by someone of your views than write those posts that show no sense of learning, no sense of cognition, no sense of reasoning, discernment or perception but just think that manipulating others views about a certain group is the right thing to do. That to me is not 'silly' it is despicable.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lCcFjRhiaw

John McDonnell, spreading tittle-tattle and meaningless fantasy about himself.

"I'm honest. I'm a Marxist."

That is why this thread is meaningless, it is built on nothing more than tittle tattle. I have already argued that there is nothing in their rhetoric that is Marxist and you simply can’t provide evidence to the contrary. Other than mindlessly parroting the gutter press.

You have hit on what seems a good wheeze to accuse the labour leadership with without giving it any thought or coming up with any evidence.

I could well accuse many of the Tories of being closet fascists but it s utterly meaningless unless I have concrete evidence.

There seems nothing more to say. I shall now leave this thread to its fantasy.

PS

I do not accuse a ' Political Party ' of being Marxist .

whitewave

"pogs All the time that you focus on personalities you are reducing the argument to a level of speciousness that doesn’t do the argument do any justice whatsoever."

I do focus quite a bit on the personality , the same as you and others might focus at time on the personalities of Theresa May, Boris Johnson, Rees Mogg on other copious amounts of threads.

When you have a party within a party that falls in behind a brand , a motto and has as part of it's Company Construct 'Jeremy for Labour Limited. ' then it also focussing on the individual in my book.

So why the surprise I mention Corbyn ? In fact why the surprise individuals are mentioned full stop?

Again you made a further accusation that I too am using 'speciousness ' in my posts, being misleading, deceptive, false. If that is the level of debate then I will not respond in kind as I have no intention of trying to challenge the mindset of somebody who feels it appropriate to make such a personal allegation , especially over this thread.

I disagree. You have evidence from what people say too, how they behave, who they praise. It's more meaningful for me to listen to a person speaking, rather than to read a document that is crafted by others to win an election.

You're free to believe whatever you want.
So am I.

But to accused someone of being a Marxist, I would expect you to say what underpins your argument in saying that, and you can’t can you? That is my point.

The only evidence you have to turn to is the manifesto, and there is zero in that that helps your argument.

Marxism is not some amorphous concept that is bandied about accusing one of other. It is a concrete economic model that has absolutely no meaning unless it is put into action.

Neither McDonnell, Corbyn or Momentum come remotely near such a model in their rhetoric.

To accuse a political party of Marxism then you must turn to its manifesto

No one is accusing the Labour Party of being a Marxist party though.

Plenty of posters have expressed admiration for Labour MPs, past and present.

Just not Corbyn, for a long list of reasons.

Why on earth were the parenthesis needed!!??

Not desperate simply true.

You accuse a political party leader of being a Marxist but simply can’t underpin this assertion with any concrete arguments simply tittle tattle and subjective opinion.

Your arguments simply don’t stand they are built on nothing more than chatter.

They simply don’t get it.

To accuse a political party of Marxism then you must turn to its manifesto and argue your case. The 2017 manifesto was produced by Corbyns team.

Corbyn is according to this thread a Marxist.

Prove it

whitewave

'Argue the actual facts and we can all take you seriously. Otherwise your arguments are specious and to be treated as such.'

The point is you can't argue ' facts '. They are what they are and we choose to believe them or not.

As for accusing a poster of being 'specious' (misleading, deceptive, false) I think that is a tad desperate.

Exactly trisher they have no defence!

I didn't ask Who is a Marxist? I didn't ask who knows about Marxism? I didn't ask What is John. MacDonald speaking about and where? I asked what Marxist policies the Labour Party had proposed- and answer came there none- because there aren't any!
Still if you can't answer the question honestly try throwing as much irrelevant information you can about.

What an extraordinary post primrose

None of you are willing to discuss the extract from the manifesto because you have no argument. Much better to keep the argument subjective and attack the individual.

To be fair ww, I have not seen anyone chanting
'ooooh, Taxation is what underpins our shared prosperity' at Labour/Momentum events.

If you try to reshape a party based on one person, don't be surprised if that person and his senior team is put under scrutiny.

If the policies are 'we don't have a strategy on that' - which you thought was a smart move - don't be surprised if people don't discuss policy.

pogs All the time that you focus on personalities you are reducing the argument to a level of speciousness that doesn’t do the argument do any justice whatsoever.

Everybody is entitled to his or her politicical persuasion I think we all agree.

Where there has been a difference of opinion over Corbyns Labour is the fact most of us hold a memory of our political past and most certainly the UK's political history.

Dependent on what your memory and view is we will naturally differ.

To some Corbyn / McDonnell are seen as holding the the destiny some wanted in the 60/70/80's to come to fruition decades later. Some who hold no memory of those periods in politics are hoping for a sea change in our politics but do not have the memory of what that could actually mean. Others who turned their backs on the days of 'Militant' and their Marxist/Communist theories feeling they were out for 'insurgency' are alarmed to see and hear those same voices calling for 'insurgency' again as McDonnell has done.

Is Corbyn all bad? No of course and I don't go around saying "I hate Labour Voters' as some say ' I hate the Tories', even on Gransnet. I remain concerned that the smiling Corbyn/ McDonnell /Momentum party that is trying it's damndest to come over as kinder will show it's true colours and follow in the footpath of their political heroes who shaped Cuba and Venezuale and most certainly the days of 'Militant' which I did grew to dislike intently for so many of their views.

A none argument primrose and I’m not cutting and pasteing.

Argue the actual facts and we can all take you seriously. Otherwise your arguments are specious and to be treated as such.

You can cut and paste as much as you want ww. Keep going while someone thinks of an interesting title for the continuation thread.

John McDonnell is a Marxist.
He says he's a Marxist.
He's talking in June at a Marxist event, in the Marx library, about Marx.
Because he's a Marxist.

Anyone care to comment on the Marxist content?

There is a lot more where this came from.

More from the “Marxists”

Brexit

Labour will always put the national interest first. Jobs and the economy is an absolute priority.

We recognise the strong benefits of the single market and customs union.

Guarantee immediately existing EU citizens rights.

We reject a no deal as an option.

Labour will not allow a roll back of workers rights and protection, and Britain will never lag behind as the EU progresses these issues.

Brexit must bring benefit to all areas of the U.K.

Yet more from the “Marxists”

Taxation is what underpins our shared prosperity.

All of us benefit from a healthy, educated and skilled workforce, with access to basic services and secure housing.

We believe in a social obligation to contribute to a fair taxation system for the common good.

This means actively pursuing tax avoidance and evasion, by giving HMRC the resources and skills to carry this out.