Carillion

So, where are our Cons GN colleagues here- have they all put their tin hats and gone to hide?

I agree M0nica and it may have been a deliberate strategy not to trigger external investigation by diversifying in the way it has.

The Business Secretary has asked for an investigation by the Official Receiver to be broadened and fast-tracked. The conduct of directors in charge at the time of company's failure and previous directors will be examined.

It won't make any difference. They probably haven't broken the law.

Private Eye makes for depressing reading about this kind of thing because it's been writing about it for so long.

jura they are all on the Corbyn thread constantly repeating themselves

And sniggering

GG there have been many examples of some of the big firms -KPMG,PWC etc being criticised for their auditing failures. A clean bill given by the auditors is not a guarantee of anything in some cases.

Governments don’t give a stuff about small businesses ( except for of course the tax and employers NI they generate and pay) I wonder how much Carillion owner HMRC? I aim to find out .
I agree there will be others in a similar situation .

WW are the Cons on GN really blaming Corbyn for the Carillion debâcle - really ? ! ? Surely, even they could not even think of even begin to do so?

So, we will probably have to pay the price of bailing out, and the social price of all those who will lose everything- in a way even worse than with the banks.

The true Cons tactic of privatising massive profits, and nationalising massive losses - and without the culprits having to pay for it in any way at all- their money stashed abroad in tax heavens.

Not even Corbyn and his socialist policies could ever cost that much- ever.

Carillion are public limited company and there are audit controls. But in recent years many of the big audit companies, have become large management consultant companies as well and often make a lot of money from these companies by offering management assistance and advice. Also auditing these companies is a year long process. Nor just nipping in for a few weeks at the end of the financial year, so with auditing staff embedded into the company they are auditing, the relationship becomes a bit too cosy.

The government needs to do something to make sure auditors are truly independent. Possibly companies who undertake audit should be banned from doing any other work for the audited company. In these days of computerised accounts etc, it should be possible for a lot of the audit work to be carried out at arms length and while there will always be part of the work that has to be done by auditors, checking actual stocks against invoices, contacts with suppliers etc. a bigger separation between auditor and company management is necessary.

www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2018/01/16/the-systemic-questions-carillion-gives-rise-to/

www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2018/01/16/the-systemic-questions-carillion-gives-rise-to/#comment-796663

Just in case you don't read the replies, this is one about that article and who made a lot of money out of Carillion.
One George Osborne who works as an adviser for Blackrock.

jura2 .....you have been in the Corbyn thread so you know full well that nobody on there is blaming him, so your first sentence is simply stirring the pot.
As for your ‘not even Corbyn and his socialist policies could ever cost that much’ ......really ! I just bet they could.
Nobody that I can see is defending anyone from either Carillion or the government, and at this early stage it’s too early to do so anyway.
Parties of all colours have for years been using private firms for public works
Only an inquiry will establish the blame game.
If Corbyn had got into power last year he would be the one that had to sort it all out right now.

I don't think you quite understood what I was saying lemongrove ;)

Oh I think that I did jura ;)

A list of things that Corbyn would be in the middle of renationalising if he had won the last election.

weownit.org.uk/public-ownership

He would not be giving more money to Virgin to carry on running the East Coast mainline, like Grayling wants to do. He would have just said thank you very much and organised to run it again like the last time.
Corbyn would not want companies like Carillion running prisons. He would take them back into public ownership; the same with the NHS.
Builders build hospitals; they don't, or shouldn't, supply the beds or the catering or cleaning or care staff.
It's obvious that Carillion was allowed to overextend. Now we want to know by whom.
Sorry, lemon, I forgot, you don't; the rest of us, who value responsibility, do want to know.

Renationalisation costs money - and that money has to come from somewhere.

Frankly at the moment, I would not trust either of the two major political parties to run a tea party in a nunnery. Each is as industrially, commercially and financially incompetent as the other.

Now what we really need is a Trump........................................

Auditor's have a reputation to sustain and I assume they can be fined. Let's hope every bit of this mess is looked into very deeply.

Renationalisation of the railways doesn't cost. When the franchises come to an end - or even before in the case of the East Coast mainline - we don't put franchises out again, just take them over.
Do you really not know how much subsidy all those franchise companies are given from the taxpayer?

youtu.be/4Cn6icMgcuQ

I do think that Corbyn is correct is saying that this will be a watershed moment for this country.

The senior Tories agree with Corbyn.

It is so bad for the Tories as their ideology of private =good and public=bad will play out very badly indeed in the country.

Questions have been asked of Grayling who awarded Carillion a large rail contract even though he was aware of the severe difficulties with Carillion.

Tories are calling Grayling Mctaverty the cat as he always escapes and is never there when you want him.

www.independent.co.uk/news/health/carillion-latest-nhs-contingency-plans-hospitals-triggered-contracts-trusts-liquidation-government-a8161881.html

Taking cleaning, maintenance, caretaking and catering back in house from Carillion will not cost.
Unfortunately, the first thing thought of was handing it over to Serco, etc.

"Away from the heat of the main chamber, there was more light in the Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee as Cabinet Secretary Jeremy Heywood and Cabinet office chief John Manzoni were grilled by MPs. I was struck by how remarkably relaxed Manzoni seemed about the collapse, saying firms came and went but the system was robust. He even said the civil servant with responsibility for Carillion had ‘played a blinder’ since last July, getting in place hundreds of contingency plans. Labour’s Paul Flynn wondered if ‘played a blinder’ was shorthand for ‘had their eyes closed’.

There’s no ‘bailout’ for Carillion but there are plenty of people suggesting the taxpayer will face hundreds of millions in extra costs thanks to its failure. It’s worth noting that Manzoni said that the Government had told the official receiver that “our main aim is the continuity of public services”. He stressed that continued payment for employees was a priority and there could be an extra cost as a result. “There will be a pace versus price debate,” he said."

From Huffpost.
I think Paul Flynn got it right.

GracesGran

www.fnlondon.com/articles/uks-audit-watchdog-preps-investigation-into-kpmg-over-carillion-20180115

Canada has seen the light.

The call for the Canadian government to step in came from Unifor and the Ontario Council of Hospital Unions (OCHU/CUPE), which represents employees at the William Osler Health System, The Royal Ottawa Hospital, Halton Healthcare and the Sault Area Hospital.

The hospitals have service contracts with Carillion, the unions said, adding the workers are among the 6,000 Canadian workers affected by the Carillion liquidation.

“It is also time for these projects to be brought back into the public sector. The folly of private ownership of the hospitals is exposed fully by this bankruptcy,” OCHU president Michael Hurley said in a statement.

Now what we really need is a Trump
Did Carillion put in a bid for building any walls by any chance?

I was listening the R2 in the car this morning because people were phoning in with their views about this and a couple of small business owners phoned in - each were going to lose money because they had been sub-contracted by Carillion to do work on government contracts but both seemed to have seen the light of day a few months ago and refused to deal with them any more. In one case Carillion was a major source of work for the small company, but she said she could not deal with them any longer. Carillion's position was to agree to pay sub-contractors within 100 days but, if the sub-contractor asked for payment within that time, Carillion would tell the sub-contractor they would have to fund a portion of the costs themselves.
I think that was the gist of it as others were talking (about this) at the same time.

Carillion should have stuck to building walls. There are a lot of walls that need to be built in hospitals, shopping centres, etc.
They shouldn't have pretended that they knew anything about running services in hospitals and prisons.

They have a legal services division in Gosforth, Newcastle. They went into work today, and half of them were told to go home. 100 people.

Do your remember what the government did with Kids Club? When they were being told so much was wrong with it they gave them more money.

They seem to have this default that whatever they know something is going wrong they try to cover their tracks.