Self Indentitying Women

There is nothing in the proposal at all relevant to toilets and changing rooms. At the moment a trans person (yes there are trans men as well as trans women) can change their name on their bank account and so on with no problem. A driving licence and passport can be changed for a small fee. These documents are accepted by everyone except State Pensions and the prison service. For the last two a Gender Recognition Certificate is required. What we are talking about in the proposal is simplifying the GRC so it no longer takes two years and hundreds of pounds to obtain.

I personally can see no problem with either gender using the allocated ‘ladies’ toilets after all they are cubicles so who knows what ‘bits’ another human being has at that point. The ‘gents’ toilet might well be another issue altogether with urinals being communal and I am sure that more women are ok with the transitional than men. Mature women seem generally to have more empathy than men with people in this situation

stepping back at this, it seems to me that since women have achieved more power and some benefits the more men are self identifying - to be women with the advantages without the disadvantages. Human males are prime opportunists it's how we have survived as a 'successful' species. I watched womens studies become gender studies to be taken over by queer studies and within a decade women excluded and men dominating - again. watch out. Never underestimate men's ability to dominate.

I don't have a problem with people living as whatever gender they want to be but, like others, I have a big problem with man self identifying as a woman and then claiming to represent women or being put in an official position to represent women. I agree with the others who have said that unless you have lived all your life as a woman, from birth onwards (because discrimination and cultural conditioning start at a very early age) I really cannot see how you can possibly have a full understanding of what it is like to be a woman. Theoretical 'understanding' just isn't good enough.

you are the sex you were at birth.

I'm afraid that it isn't always that simple:

www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/health/conditionsandtreatments/ambiguous-genitalia

www.buzzfeed.com/azeenghorayshi/born-in-between?utm_term=.paoWWVGw5v#.uaz66lWdR7

Azie09 In almost every case I've seen, when numbers of women at an event cause long queues for the toilets whereas the men are walking freely in and out, I've never seen a woman choose to use the men's. I think this says something about how women feel in relation to men
No all this says is that you have a narrow circle of knowledge. I've been to many events where the women have 'taken over' the men's loos because the queue was too long in the ladies. Including motor way service stations when we were en-route to the anti-war demo (and that was ages ago). I'm told they do it in some night clubs as well. And of course porta loos are usually for everyone.
maryeliza54 if only it were as simple as you seem to think.
I’ve experienced by the very fact of being a biological woman - puberty, periods, pregnancy, birth, motherhood, menopause many designated women at birth will not experience all or indeed any of those things. Are they then to be re-classified as something else because their experiences do not match yours?

radicalnan
???

It is the celebration of 100 years of votes for women. Extremely hard fought for and won. It is to my mind now bizarre that we have a naturally born female displaced in one of our main political parties by someone born a man who has had surgery to become a woman and usurp her position.

should say representing not representation

It is a tricky issue for sure but in the case of representation women in gender equality issues then I think it would depend more on the individual SI woman and their character etc.
I have once (to my knowledge) known a SI woman and he/she was a decent enough man/woman who suffered a lot of verbal abuse daily going about his/her business and I worked beside a SI man and I wouldn't have known had others not told me. The SI woman was not far down the line in the way of ops and still looked like a man and the SI man had received all the treatment and looked like a man.
These individuals usually suffer a lot before they are fully the gender they SI identify with and from that comes experience which can be put to good use.

I believe this self identification is open to abuse and should be avoided. I am not sure that the current tsunami of gender re assignments is at all healthy, butchery supporting confusion is not sensible. A high number of people regret their decision eventually and we don't really know the long term effects of it all.

However, I am prepared to self identify as a slender, well dressed person and see how far that gets me, maybe a wealthy one, so I can bounce cheques and blame it on my life long suspicion that I am born into the wrong poor body.

There will soon be so many short lists we won't know who to vote for (very little choice as it is) are the rapist going to have their own list? the necrophilliacs ? we have taken a turn where we convince ourselves that sexual matters define people.........if only we had a short list for the wise.....it would however be very short indeed.

Rosieroe

I heartily endorse your comment.

MY stance (though I imagine I'll be shot down in flames) is that you are the sex you were at birth. I have no truck with the LGBTQF posse pushing their agenda. Each to his own point of view.

A rapist can suddenly say I identify as being a woman and be placed in a female prison and a man who identifies as a woman is entitled to a smear test, which is denied to younger women. I guess they will also be entitled to a mammogram in one of the mobile units which do not allow men to enter. Madness!

I have no problem with those self identifying as a woman (or a man), I have no problem with those who undergo the harrowing journey to change sex. I do find it difficult to understand those who identify as a woman one day and as a man the next - depending on what suits them that particular day. I do think Rosieroe has a point about whether someone who has not lived as a woman can fully understand some of the difficulties.

Oh - I’ve just seen that I’m not alone in my views. We must have woken up with the same thoughts to share!

I personally feel that politicians of ALL parties need to address the inequalities and issues in society relating to WOMEN, CHILDREN, THE ELDERLY, THE SICK, HOMELESSNESS, LAW ENFORCEMENT, DEFENCE ... before they allow diversionary tactics from those who shout the loudest to take centre stage - as seems to be the case.

As for permitting people born male and who have decided they would prefer to live their life as a women to take the place of, and claim to represent, women who are born women and have gone through their entire lives as women and therefore have more experience of how society treats women is something I think we, as women, should be enraged about. It’s much more of a concern than which toilet they use.

Great post Azie- xed with mine.

I don’t want trans gender women fighting for my rights at all - or rather my specific rights as a biological woman as opposed to general human rights. I don’t want a transgender woman ( self identifying or otherwise) representing and speaking for me on issues that I’ve experienced by the very fact of being a biological woman - puberty, periods, pregnancy, birth, motherhood, menopause. This is where SI unchecked will lead us. I absolutely refuse to be labelled as a cis woman as a way of differentiating me from trans women. Jenni Murray was right - trans women are exactly that - they are not ‘real’ women. As for the party politics behind all this - the SI move was led by Maria Millar through a private members bill which only fell because of the calling of the 2017 election (in fact that was my first response on hearing of the election). I had been part of a campaign ( inspired for me by MN) in fighting this bill. Many of us wrote to our MPs across the political parties and most of the MPs letters were a cut and paste of a response from MM’s office, basically dismissing all the concerns that we brought up. After the election, Justine Greening took up the cudgels along with MM. However,it now appears that JG was beginning to have second thoughts realising that a headlong rush into rights for trans women to SI meant that the rights of biological women were in danger of being trampled underfoot. There seems to have been a slowing down of the implementation of the SI changes. Just think about it - if there is a rape support group for biological women - should SI women who have been raped be allowed in? They need their own raped trans women support group, as do raped biological men. The radical trans activists are not pro women at all - in fact quite the reverse- and if they got their way with SI it would be a very dark day indeed for women’s rights. MN is easily the best and most informed source of information ( as is a twitter group we formed) about the activities of RTA, their hatred of women and their access to those in power that listen to them.

What really bothers me about this whole issue is that the first I heard about the apparent scale of people wanting to transition etc was some months ago on Gransnet and now again, I find a thread that leaves me confused and somewhat uncomfortable. I read several news outlets every day and I've always been a political person yet here are apparently major changes taking place in how people present themselves but not a word out there informing the general public. Is this more of a London thing than anything else?
I have always been open minded, I have no problem with gay people or other races/ethnicities /religions as long as they don't impinge on me - live and let live and all that.
But this does bother me because our biological identity is at the heart of who we are and whilst I understand that some people may be unhappy with their assigned gender, the sudden realisation that major changes may be taking place relating to the division between male and female spaces in our society without letting the general public know is startling.
Many women in our society are uneasy with men on a spectrum from embarrassment to fear. In almost every case I've seen, when numbers of women at an event cause long queues for the toilets whereas the men are walking freely in and out, I've never seen a woman choose to use the men's. I think this says something about how women feel in relation to men
It's all very well citing Denmark and other Nordic countries, they have always had a different ethos. We're talking about the UK and the norms here regarding public behaviour by people who look like men or women. I don't think there's anything wrong with a woman who would be disturbed by the presence of a man outside her toilet cubicle, perhaps while she's inserting a tampon, or buying one from the machine outside. Girls are still uncomfortable about periods and developing bodies. I'm concerned about a bunch of activists pushing changes that may have a detrimental effect on the mental health and sense of safety of average women. Since the proliferation of easily available porn, it appears to me that attitudes to women have changed for the worse. We appear to be going backwards and I am disturbed to find the only place I discover another angle on this is on a forum such as this.

That's horrific stuff about how lesbians are being affected, SueDonim.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/edc9d44c-03a3-11e8-825e-96e193a013c1

Teacher Roy Wilkes almost lost his job for stating views that, I think, are perfectly sensible.

Does anyone here disagree with his views and/or think he should have lost his job?

Or even !

Primrose65, no apology required. I never remember what's been said on threads anyway! It's very kind of you, though, so have some :flowers: in return.

I do agree that people who want to behave badly will do so anyway trisher. From the video's I've seen of the trans activists who behave badly, it's a group of men who like beating up women. The only difference is, now we hold those people up as inspirational people, fighting for a cause, who we should admire. We use to think they were violent misogynists. But now they have a licence to behave like that, as they can say 'I am a woman and you are transphobic'.

If there is any negative effect on anyone of any gender or sexual persuasion it is wrong whatever the gender or sexual preference of the person concerned. It really doesn't make any difference if the person self identifies or goes through a required legal process to be identified. People who want to behave badly do so anyway.

When you've lived as a woman, been through the process, I don't have an issue trisher. I don't think that's a mixed idea at all. There's a process.
I'd still be interested to know how providing 'evidence' is so stressful. As I said - it's like a passport application.

SueDonim - I owe you an apology and a thank you, for your efforts on previous threads on this topic. I know back then, I had the opinion that this was a big fuss about nothing. I remember that you and other posters went to great pains to try and explain implications to me. It fell on deaf ears at the time, but it did make me research the topic more thoroughly and I've actually changed my mind about this. So a sorry for not thinking it through at the time and a thank you for creating a spark of interest.