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Self Indentitying Women

(170 Posts)
TerriBull Sun 28-Jan-18 11:33:31

Andrew Marr posed this issue to Jeremy Corbyn today, he was quite emphatic, the position of the Labour Party is, that if an individual born male, identifies as a woman then as far as the party is concerned he/she is a woman. AM also put it to JC this will alienate many women within the party, so much so they will resign their membership. Should the desires of an infantesimal proportion of society trounce the rights of half of the population?

Anniebach Sun 28-Jan-18 11:41:16

This has not be put to the party members , yet he stresses how he listens to members . It is not the position of the Labour Party it is the position of Corbyn and the Momentum controlled NEC

Bridgeit Sun 28-Jan-18 11:42:28

If they can do the job they are paid to do & are not on a mission to convert everyone to transition, then I cannot see any problem, at the end of the day we are all just human beings. Trying to do some good for the world we live in far out weighs for me how a person chooses to identify .

Bridgeit Sun 28-Jan-18 11:44:22

Is transitioning trouncing the rights of half of the population...???

Anniebach Sun 28-Jan-18 11:51:57

So a man who self identifies as a woman should be employed in work which would involve access to girls changing rooms ?

Bridgeit Sun 28-Jan-18 11:57:30

Well I suppose you would have to arrive at the conclusion that any person who enters a female toilet & susquently behaves in an inappropriate manner, then they would be reported & be answerable to & dealt with by the appropriate authorities.

Primrose65 Sun 28-Jan-18 12:04:54

I don't think this debate is about transitioning.
It's about self-identification.

My understanding is transitioning is a process, it has a start point and an endpoint. It's medical, emotional, physical ...... it's a huge undertaking.

Self-identification is an event. Someone simply has to say 'I am a woman'.

Apologies in advance if I've omitted salient points about transitioning.

Primrose65 Sun 28-Jan-18 12:13:23

I don't think the behaviour of people during their use of toilets is the issue at all!

It's about women's rights.

All women shortlists are designed to increase the number of women MPs.
The Jo Cox programme is for experienced women members who are ready to lead in the Labour Party.

If you have transitioned, you are a woman. I have not seen any arguments against women (who have transitioned) applying for these positions.

Men who 'self-identify' as women are not women in my opinion, and should not be allowed to take the place of women on programmes designed to advance women.

Bridgeit Sun 28-Jan-18 12:16:04

Ok, sorry, so the concern is that a man dressed & behaving like a man can please himself if he chooses to use the ladies toilets just by saying ‘ don’t worry girls I identify as a woman’ . Well if he was dressed & behaving like an ordinary man then no I would not be very happy to meet him in the ladies loos.

M0nica Sun 28-Jan-18 12:23:34

So a man can self-identify as a woman so that he gets an easy run onto an all female short list to be selected for a seat.

If a woman self identifies as a man would she be excluded from such a list or would she stay on because biologically she is still a woman.

Why are we always hearing about men self identifying as women and very few (any?) women identifying as male. How would men feel about women identifying as men using their loos?

mollie Sun 28-Jan-18 12:25:17

What’s the problem with women’s loos. Women use cubicles which seems no different from anyone using a bathroom in a normal house. Changing rooms in a gym or swimming pool might be different.

I didn’t hear the interview so what was the context? Was the question about use of gender specific facilities or women only quotas?

Ilovecheese Sun 28-Jan-18 12:26:39

This issue is not party political. it is this current Conservative Government who are reforming the Gender Recognition Act to make it easier for people to be treated as the gender they choose to be.

The Act does not have any caveats about what job someone should be allowed to do, once they have self identified.

I know there is some concern about some men who will use these rights to their own advantage, but let's not start saying that some people should not be able to do some jobs until we have seen any evidence that they are doing the job badly.

There was probably some concern at the time about men becoming midwives, but that has turned out to be fine.

Primrose65 Sun 28-Jan-18 12:48:32

The Labour Party has suspended members for protesting about this already. I don't think the Conservatives have, but would be happy to be corrected there.

I don't think the argument is about the capability to perform in a role - funnily enough men have far more experience in leadership, being MPs etc than women.

'Women only' programmes are designed to redress the balance.

The question for me is about quotas mollie.

Bridgeit Sun 28-Jan-18 13:12:21

Well I guess in time humans will all be hermaprodites & androgynists. ?

Anniebach Sun 28-Jan-18 13:41:54

In the swimming pool at our local leasure centre no male is allowed in the female changing room yet Bridgeit you wouldn't approve of a man in a suit walking in but you have no problem with a man who claims to be a woman ,but isn't, being in the female only changing room?

Anniebach Sun 28-Jan-18 13:45:11

Male midwives are qualified and I doubt they claim to be a woman

Bridgeit Sun 28-Jan-18 13:54:44

Annibach, I did not say I approve or disapprove of either.I was commenting about the topic in hand & the way of the world & how things are evolving . What I disapprove of is anyone male or female having to do anything against their wishes.

Bridgeit Sun 28-Jan-18 13:55:55

No pun intended with the ‘ topic in hand ‘comment’ !

Anniebach Sun 28-Jan-18 14:06:24

I disapprove of the freedom for a man to decide he is a woman and be accepted in women's changing rooms or being Included in an all female selection short list

Devorgilla Sun 28-Jan-18 14:13:23

Primrose65, you are right that the 'men' they talking about are those who have been through all the processes and are now recognised as female. It is a long and arduous business. You can't just pop into your local political party and self identify as a woman. The way it is put over in the press is very misleading. Of course, whether these people are as good at arguing for women's rights etc as biological women is another debate altogether.

Primrose65 Sun 28-Jan-18 14:30:08

Devorgilla I think the argument is totally about self-identification.
The people who have been through the arduous process of transition are accepted as women - there are no issues with that at all.

The people who 'self-identify' are the issue. No process, no transition, nothing. That's what I mean by 'an event'. You really can just say 'I identify as a woman'. There is no other process needed and this is what is causing the problems.

Arguing for women's rights is one thing people can do whether they are men, women or Martians.
The crux of the problem, for me, is that men are taking away positions that have been ringfenced for women. In an ideal world, those ringfenced positions would be unnecessary. But right now, they are.

TerriBull Sun 28-Jan-18 15:03:10

Many will have read about "Lily Madigan" a teenage boy now identifying as a woman, who recently ousted an actual woman out of her position of a Labour Pary, Womens' Officer.

A couple of weeks ago The Sunday Times wrote an article about female prisons and the upsurge of men identifying as women, far greater than the national average, being admitted to womens' prisons and the problems associated with that.

Some schools, colleges and universities are changing the status of toilets to allow transgender students to enter those areas.

A while back a group of teenage girls were shocked to find a transgender man in the female changing rooms of Top Shop.

A woman who had specifically asked for a female nurse to carry out her cervical smear was assigned a male nurse as he was now identifying as a female.

Hampstead Heath has 3 swimming ponds, not just for the residents there but the general public. One exclusively male, one mixed and one exclusively female, self identifying women have turned up at the women only pond, much to the horror of regulars who feel that they can no longer relax in what was an all female sanctuary, and as some have pointed out why, when these self identifying individuals have two other ponds to use, they have to push it on what they perceive as their rights to use the women only one.

I belong to health club, the changing room is also very much a female sanctuary, as indeed I imagine the male room is. There are showers one emerges from those with just a towel, women in the changing room are most of the time at various stages of undress or completely naked. Just ask most females whether they would be comfortable with a self identifier entering their very personal space. I think the consensus would be fairly weighted one way.

The self identifying issue has enormous ramifications for 50% of the population "The Many, not the few" to quote Jeremy.

trisher Sun 28-Jan-18 15:20:40

Self identification is the norm in many civilised countries. They are people who have transitioned, but who object to having to endure intrusive medical examinations to be able to legally change their gender. The countries that allow this in law have not suddenly become places where women are not safe, where women are raped and assaulted by men in dresses in toilets and chaging rooms.
Norway, Denmark Malta and Ireland have not become places where women have fewer rights.

Bridgeit Sun 28-Jan-18 15:33:13

I am confused,Are you saying the woman was ousted from her post because the young person who took her place was self indentifying as a woman or was there another reason?

Primrose65 Sun 28-Jan-18 15:45:28

I really don't think it is a safety issue trisher, it's not for me. Whether men or women, violent people will be violent.

I think it's difficult to quantify an impact or decide there are no negative outcomes when this is something that has only recently been adopted by a few 'civilised' countries. I also don't think a country is 'uncivilised' if it doesn't adopt it.

Is self-identification OK for all protected characteristics? Surely that has to be the next step. A big issue is where this will end up.