Self Indentitying Women

According to a Mumsnet thread, there's a negative effect on the lesbian community from transactivists.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3146166-Transactivism-and-the-lesbian-community?messages=100&pg=1

But you said
If you have transitioned, you are a woman
Not until you've filled in the right forms now apparently. You seem to have some mixed ideas about what is really happening here.

What 'evidence' is needed trisher, other than a couple of bills in your new name and a report from your doctor saying yes, this person wants to live as a woman and has felt this way for 2 years?
I think it's a T150 form you have to fill in and send off.
That's the only difference I can see between changing your gender and applying for a passport, which is a level of stress that's deemed OK for everyone.

Not necessarily different, self identification is seen as less stressful for those who have undergone sex reassignment surgery unless they present the evidence the GRP request they will not be permitted to change their gender. The law will probably change anyway and bring us into line with Denmark etc.

Surely transgender or people undergoing sex change is different to self identifying or am I totally naive.

The other question is why there should be a 'negative effect" from trans gender women. Arguably these may well be active, strongly political women who will fight more for women's rights.

Primrose65 you posted earlier Devorgilla I think the argument is totally about self-identification.
The people who have been through the arduous process of transition are accepted as women - there are no issues with that at all.
I'm sorry you are wrong about this, present law asks that a person changing gender undergoes substantial examination Since 4 April 2005, as per the Gender Recognition Act 2004, it is possible for transgender people to change their legal gender in the UK, allowing them to acquire a new birth certificate, affording them full recognition of their acquired sex in law for all purposes. Transgender people must present evidence to a Gender Recognition Panel, which considers their case and issues a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC); they must have transitioned two years before a GRC is issued. It is not a requirement for sex reassignment surgery to have taken place, although such surgery will be accepted as part of the supporting evidence for a case where it has taken place. There is formal approval of medical gender reassignment available either on the National Health Service (NHS) or privately
Arguably this can cause stress that self identification removes

Ah, that makes perfect sense Devorgilla.

Trisher, I'm not sure that the 'evidence' you want could ever be collected. Academics are currently having issues studying the negative impact of anything transgender - apparently, upsetting people on Twitter is now a reason to reject research.

Primrose65, thank you for your clarification. I did't realise you could just self identify in that way. Yes, anyone can fight for the rights of others. I was thinking more in a wider sense of biological experiences throughout one's life that the other gender would not encounter.

Just re capping on your thread TerriBull, No I don’t think one school of thought should trounce another,but I do think if there gradually becomes a majority of those in favour of any given subject within a group or party then this eventually gives rise to a break away group, because the difference of opinion becomes too great to remain cohesive so in that case yes definitely JC May have to do a U turn by siding with the few not the many!

As self-identification is likely to become the law in the near future the LP is simply moving ahead of the government (as usual). Does anyone really think that Denmark does not have a great record on the equality of women? and can anyone identify anything that has happened since they accepted self-identification to threaten that record?
The number of red herrings being raised on this thread is unbelievable. Can anyone state a genuine case from the countries already accepting self -identification where women have suffered less equality or been more discriminated against?

without sounding dismissive of your point (and it’s an interesting one) nightowl can we keep to the subject of self identifying men/women and not add a further division? I’m finding life is taking on so many different edges to it that I’m becoming afraid to have an opinion on anything, after all I’m a straight white female Labour voting brexiteer...whatever I say is bound to upset someone!

Remember Rachel Dolezal, who self-identified as a black woman and in fact was white? (If fact comes into it that is) Anyway, she was ridiculed when the truth was exposed, she lost her job and underwent a police investigation (I believe). Was she a victim of prejudice? Should she now have an apology and be reinstated? How is this different? Just putting it out there.

RosieRoe, thanks for sharing that,It makes you wonder it it is right for surgeons to do such procedures.
It use to be the case that one had to have a psychological assessment before any normalish surgeries could take place, let alone anything unusual. Where will it all end ?

Who cares? I don’t!

Is this a cat? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalking_Cat

Ahh thanks TerriBull, Well whilst I don’t agree with offending or offensive remarks, it doesn’t seem right that anybody should demand the sacking of another without a proper investigation, was there one.?
Equality seems to be nosediving into - I have a right to say & do what ever I like and woe betide you if you go against me. The world is going mad, we will end up in a position where people meet in secret so as not to offend anyone , it will be back to the dark ages & witch hunts!!

As I understand it Bridgeit, Lily Madigan demanded the removal of the existing Women's Officer due to what Lily considered were her transphobic views.

I have indeed used "the hole in the floor" in France, not communal behind a locked door and I remember toilets not being designated for exclusively male or female use. they tended to be a single toilet with a lock on the door. In many circumstances such as planes of course that will be the case. However, a changing rooms, particularly where total undress is taking place is somewhere where the majority do not wish to encounter the opposite sex.

Back to the changing rooms scenario ,am I correct in saying that on the continent or parts of it ,toilets & changing rooms are for everyone ( or in some parts the hole in the floor!).?

The protection of children and adolescents and vulnerable adults should be the priority of every political party.
Their rights should trump any minority

This doesn't mean that I don't understand that people who feel that they were born in the wrong body have immense problems to overcome.

I really don't think it is a safety issue trisher, it's not for me. Whether men or women, violent people will be violent.

I think it's difficult to quantify an impact or decide there are no negative outcomes when this is something that has only recently been adopted by a few 'civilised' countries. I also don't think a country is 'uncivilised' if it doesn't adopt it.

Is self-identification OK for all protected characteristics? Surely that has to be the next step. A big issue is where this will end up.

I am confused,Are you saying the woman was ousted from her post because the young person who took her place was self indentifying as a woman or was there another reason?

Self identification is the norm in many civilised countries. They are people who have transitioned, but who object to having to endure intrusive medical examinations to be able to legally change their gender. The countries that allow this in law have not suddenly become places where women are not safe, where women are raped and assaulted by men in dresses in toilets and chaging rooms.
Norway, Denmark Malta and Ireland have not become places where women have fewer rights.

Many will have read about "Lily Madigan" a teenage boy now identifying as a woman, who recently ousted an actual woman out of her position of a Labour Pary, Womens' Officer.

A couple of weeks ago The Sunday Times wrote an article about female prisons and the upsurge of men identifying as women, far greater than the national average, being admitted to womens' prisons and the problems associated with that.

Some schools, colleges and universities are changing the status of toilets to allow transgender students to enter those areas.

A while back a group of teenage girls were shocked to find a transgender man in the female changing rooms of Top Shop.

A woman who had specifically asked for a female nurse to carry out her cervical smear was assigned a male nurse as he was now identifying as a female.

Hampstead Heath has 3 swimming ponds, not just for the residents there but the general public. One exclusively male, one mixed and one exclusively female, self identifying women have turned up at the women only pond, much to the horror of regulars who feel that they can no longer relax in what was an all female sanctuary, and as some have pointed out why, when these self identifying individuals have two other ponds to use, they have to push it on what they perceive as their rights to use the women only one.

I belong to health club, the changing room is also very much a female sanctuary, as indeed I imagine the male room is. There are showers one emerges from those with just a towel, women in the changing room are most of the time at various stages of undress or completely naked. Just ask most females whether they would be comfortable with a self identifier entering their very personal space. I think the consensus would be fairly weighted one way.

The self identifying issue has enormous ramifications for 50% of the population "The Many, not the few" to quote Jeremy.

Devorgilla I think the argument is totally about self-identification.
The people who have been through the arduous process of transition are accepted as women - there are no issues with that at all.

The people who 'self-identify' are the issue. No process, no transition, nothing. That's what I mean by 'an event'. You really can just say 'I identify as a woman'. There is no other process needed and this is what is causing the problems.

Arguing for women's rights is one thing people can do whether they are men, women or Martians.
The crux of the problem, for me, is that men are taking away positions that have been ringfenced for women. In an ideal world, those ringfenced positions would be unnecessary. But right now, they are.