Are older people today out of touch politically with younger generations?

73 MEPs. How many British bureacrats, you cannot exclude them.

Anyway, that is no different to almost any other parliament, including our own. How many Scots Nats, Plaid Cymru, various Irish parties, Lib Dems etc etc . How representative is our current leading political party, or the main opposition of the country as a whole.

How representative are those who voted Brexit ? 17.4 million voted out, 16.1 voted remain and 12.9 million didn't vote at all. When most votes are this close the views of the minority are usually taken into account, in deciding how the majority vote should be implemented. I have yet to hear a single Brexiteer accept that the opinions of the 16.1 deserve to be considered.

As I said, as far as Brexiteers are concerned it is 'I'm alright Jack' (and b*gger take the hindmost)

Nonnie I only asked about your last sentence, but given there's support for the public having a say on the final deal it's not absurd. Did you miss the news yesterday about the announcement of the cross party group led by Chuka Umunna?

Pro-EU Campaign Groups Join Forces

I know how wealthy Esher is, but your joke fell flat because your sentence has nothing to do with the discussion. Let's just leave it.

"The so called 'unknown bureaucrats' are known to our representatives in Europe, e.g. Mr Farage. MEPs are there to represent us. We voted for them"

That means very little really when you look at the composition of the EU.

How many British MEPs are there? How many MEPs are there in the European Parliament? Which country has the greatest number?

Whats the difference between the European Council, and the Council of the European Union?

There is also a European Parliament and the European Commission. What are their roles. How are they made up?

You are on the spot: Your starter for ten. Tell us now what their roles are and how they differ from each other? Yes, Google well may be your friend and explain them but does it make much sense to any of us?

Add to that the hundreds of agencies and committees which sit alongside them and thousands of well-paid bureaucrats on the gravy train.

To the outsider transparency and accountability is impossible. We have to trust that the EU is working for us but we have very little chance of calling this bureaucratic behemoth to account.

There aren't enough hours in a day to get to the bottom of what is going on where and who is working for whom. It's a complex, labyrinthine set up, designed to confuse. That makes it pretty much unaccountable to the people it supposedly serves.

And we are one of the largest contributors to this colossal organisation. As mentioned above we pay in far more than we get back.

Ask your Remain friends for an explanation of how the system works and the roles of the various bodies in Brussels and Strasbourg. They'll flounder without a doubt.

It's like throwing money at a drain.

M0nica I couldn't agree more and I haven't accepted the referendum result as a fait accompli. Not one bit.

"As I said, as far as Brexiteers are concerned it is 'I'm alright Jack' (and b*gger take the hindmost)"

That is YOUR opinion as a Remainer MOnica.

I believe, as I have said before, the EU does exactly the opposite of what you state above. The EU shafts the man on the street and needs a migrant workforce (no borders) to keep wages low and the working man competing for jobs and taking anything they can get. The EU plays into
the hands of capitalists (all remainers) making massive profits for the already wealthy whilst those with least remain the poorest.

Getting out should be a left wing cause. Jeremy Corbyn is a Eurosceptic, but sadly one who is happy to sit on the fence in order to retain his seat.

I hope the OP can show his young relatives that older people do indeed think about issues long and hard.

This thread is fast turning into the merits or otherwise of the EU and is no longer about the role older people play in the system.

Oh so many of your unsubstantiated opinions and yet you object to one opinion from someone else Day6. You really do come across as a very aggressive Brexiteer.

Day6 how many people know the name of their local MP or how our own parliament works? How many don't care that they don't know?

I know Google is my friend, but so is Europa.eu. I've worked with EU groups as part of the UK team and I understand how things work. I know about the deals done behind closed doors to secure the necessary votes to achieve objectives. I know the EU is an inefficient body. But I also know that reform is happening and has been since 2014. Just last week Junker (who I can't stand) announced who will be on the Task Force on Subsidiarity and Proportionality that will report by July in preparation for the release of the white paper on the future of Europe. Unsurprisingly the UK is not one of the 6 task force members and I'm not sure if the UK will even be consulted given Brexit is only 14 months away. So we will not be able to influence the reform process. I voted Remain because I think the UK is better in the EU than out and we've thrown the baby out with the bath water by voting to leave.

Juncker appointed six members to the 'Task Force on Subsidiarity, Proportionality and "Doing Less More Efficiently"

I said last night that I didn't see the point of this thread if we're just going to rehash the pros and cons of Brexit. Despite what I said I've been drawn into a Brexit discussion, so I'm not responding to any posts now that subject.

Petra of course ?. No wonder countries like Poland love the EU they pay nothing in but receive big handouts.

You really do come across as a very aggressive Brexiteer.

Thanks for yet more personal criticism of me GG. It's becoming par for the course with you, isn't it?

I am a pussycat really. In 'real life' I am genial and very laid back. We all know that emotion and tone cannot always be conveyed accurately via the written word. You don't read people very well. There is a difference between aggression and passion. I perhaps write passionately about leaving the EU but without ill will. Others do exactly the same but are spared your opprobrium.

I shouldn't have to explain myself to you.

Looks like you've had the last word twice Wilma well done, enjoy.

I'm off this thread now as it has nothing to do with the OP and the OP made an attack and then didn't respond when asked to justify. Too late if he comes back now days later as I won't be reading it. Same old, same old.

Nearly fell off my chair, as you forgot to put the quote in inverted comas or italics ahahahaha - oh it did make me chuckle.

Yes, Nonnie - where's James2451

"Light blue touch paper and retire"

Thanks for yet more personal criticism of me GG

That is not personal criticism - yet alone more. It is how you come across to me. I did not say it is how you are.

650 MPs Day and my MP is Keith Simpson. I have no idea how many MEPs there are. No idea what countries have how many. How it's decided or what any of them stand for. Or who my MEP is. I know s/he covers a very large area. It's largely irrelevant to me. What happens in Brussels or wherever they are at present is somewhere else in the universe. I know they influence my life, but I have no influence or knowledge of them. I did actually ask my Remainer DD who her MEP is and what she knew of EU workings - and she's no wiser than me. It's nice to know the young can be ignorant too. Although at 43 is she still young?

It's young when it comes to voting for Jeremy Corbyn NfkD. I think they discovered that the 'youff' vote that was declared to be the reason why he did as well as he did was something like between 24 and 47. (I haven't checked it).

I have children in their 40s with children, mortgages and lots of hard work in their lives and I would hardly call this their youth.

We also have 19 to 21 year olds and seven and nine. I would be interesting to know the ages at James's lunch.

You really do come across as an aggressive Remainer GG
( that is not personal criticism btw) it is how you come across to me.

Wilma yes, this thread is going way off course.

You are on the spot: Your starter for ten. Tell us now what their roles are and how they differ from each other? Yes, Google well may be your friend and explain them but does it make much sense to any of us?

The Commission is the equivalent of our civil service. There are 46,000 of them, appointed from all nationalities. As opposed to 380,000 UK civil servants. Are you able to explain in detail the roles and functions of that 380,000? Broadly, they draft the laws proposed by Parliament and administer the laws; EU civil servants do the same thing. And they do it according to the wishes of the elected heads of governments in the EU council and the EU Parliament.

The fact that you don't understand how a large organisation works, Day6 doesn't automatically make it evil, corrupt or a 'gravy train'

Day6 do you know about all about the Select Committees and all the other supra parliamentary organisations in the British Parliament? How many changes in British law and procedure are issued through ministries with out going through parliament. When you know all those, I will have a go at Brussels.

When we heard the result of the referendum. I accepted the result. I assumed that the winning side would take cognizance of how close the vote was and in justice and fairness would take the strong remain vote into consideration in the negotiations for Brexit, but, well, we have seen what has happened.

MOnica, my asking about the make up of the EU was a sort of rhetorical question, aimed at no one in particular.

You could very well ask the same questions of our own parliament and yes, it too is multi-layered, but our structure is fairly transparent. We have regional and local councils which see to local affairs, and I'd bet we all know our MPs and could insist on getting information if we wanted it. We can also sit in at many meetings, at local government level and central government too. Meetings for my local council are published along with the names of committee members. It's much more transparent and accessible and administrators of the whole shebang can be found on local government sites.

I wouldn't know who to find or where to find them if I wanted to explore the EU set up. I wouldn't know where to begin. I don't ant my MEP to be the only person in the region who has that knowledge. I'd like to be a fly on the wall and see exactly what MEPs do to earn their salary and expenses.

We have our parliament and we pay Brussels too. I am a Leaver. I do not see the need or benefits of two governing bodies. I am appalled we accept EU limitations, EU legislation, EU tariffs and EU T&Cs. We pay billions to be part of it too.

Much EU legislation is EU legislation because our parliament saw no point in reinventing the wheel and putting through our parliament legislation that would undoubtedly have been incorporated in to UK legislation had it not always been legislated for by the EU. That is why our parliament has passed an Act to incorporate much of the EU legislation into UK law.

Having tried to get information out of my MP and been involved in the planning process, your opinion of the transparency of our government at any level is much higher than mine.

I would never argue that the EU system was perfect, I am quite happy to admit that it has many failings, but so does the UK system, but on the balance of probabilities I would sooner be in than out.

PS to the above.

We also know the names of the government MPs and their roles, and those of the Shadow Cabinet.

Has any body explored Google to find the names and roles of every member of the ....erm...let me go back and check the names of these bodies..

1) European Council
2) Council of the European Union
3) European Commission
4) European Parliament.

Do we know, do we care? Who is electing the people who sit on these councils? It's not me, that's for sure.

Do I know what they look like?
Could I pick any of them out in a line-up? No.
Do I like their politics? I haven't a clue.

The EU is a massive, expensive, faceless organisation.

Surely if we assume that there are at least some on here are fairly knowledgeable about what people do which jobs in our government. If that is true you have to ask why there isn't an equal awareness of those working for us and the way the jobs are done in the European Parliament.

The only people who constantly want to tell us about the structure of the EU are the gutter press like the DM It is noticeable that the rather childish language used in that paper is often used by those on forums who want to leave the EU on here but don't even start to understand how our democracy works.. We rarely get knowledgable argument from leavers, on here or elsewhere, just urban myths and name calling.

If our own governments had bought into what we and they decided to join, and had made sure we knew which parts of the country were benefiting, etc., while they just made the areas decimated by Thatcher and those that came after her even more distressing places to live, perhaps the odd brexiteer would be able to talk more fluently about just how the EU works and what our government, along with their Parliament has achieved.