Gransnet forums

News & politics

What then?

(27 Posts)
mollie Sat 10-Feb-18 13:53:12

out of interest can the Remainers describe for me what they see happening if another referendum goes their way? For arguments sake let’s suggest that as we are due to exit the EU in March, that another vote takes place in December this year and the country votes to stay in. Would the EU treat us with renewed enthusiasm and as equal members (not that we were before) and would all the negotiations to date be dropped as if they never happened? Or would they have us over a different barrel and see us as weak, indecisive and to be taken advantage of? And what about the positive action taken by many of our businesses in advance? Would that all invalid too? And what about our current government and it’s members? Boosted or broken? And what of our stock market that dips and dives at the smallest blink? Or do you expect the EU to agree to a period of ‘unwinding’? And life to continue as though nothing had happened in the last two years? I’d really like to know.

mollie Sat 10-Feb-18 13:53:50

March next year

Bridgeit Sat 10-Feb-18 14:03:25

Perhaps we should ask ‘ Mr Farrage ‘ oh we can’t he’s nowhere to be seen, ship & sinking comes to mind.

durhamjen Sat 10-Feb-18 15:31:15

That's a lot of questions.
We were better than equal before the referendum. We had lots of areas where we were not part of the EU, no euro, no Schengen borders, many of the EU laws were ones we had introduced.

I think we will be welcomed back with open arms, and the EU will be much more careful about the way they treat us, as they will not want it to happen again with the next generation.

Hopefully Farage and Ukip will be voted out at the next EU elections, too, after he's been made to repay the money he has defrauded from the EU.

janeainsworth Sat 10-Feb-18 15:35:53

I agree with dj. The last thing the EU wants is more countries doing a Brexit.

It’s hardly fair though Mollie to expect Remainers to have any clue about what might happen after a second referendum. How can we?
After all the Leavers had no clue about what would happen after the first one, did they?

durhamjen Sat 10-Feb-18 15:38:29

Hopefully our trade will improve again, once the EU start to trust us.

Jacob Rees-Mogg said in a Sky interview that it was unfair that a car built in Japan should cost 12% more than a Peugeot car that probably wouldn't work.
Not being exactly evenhanded, is he?
We will still need to import Peugeot cars, won't we?

lemongrove Sat 10-Feb-18 15:43:25

We would be a hostage to the EU’s fortune mollie ( although I am not a Remainer.)
The EU would know that it never had to agree anything at all, or cede anything to the UK and could demand anything it liked.That’s why another referendum is not possible.

Welshwife Sat 10-Feb-18 15:49:02

Exactly the phrase I was going to use Jen - better than equal!

I think that we have inflicted so much damage on the country already in the way negotiations have been conducted that many countries would be very wary of trusting a word we say for a long time. They have kept on saying how we can change our mind any time and remain within the union and we would retain the benefits of free trade and movement etc but I am not so sure that we would retain the huge refund we had.

The other countries would be glad to have huge headache taken away as they all have to make adjustments because of our leaving - mainly the way customs are dealt with at the borders.

Many businesses are expanding branches they had within the EU so would most likely retain those but many have already stated that once they set up these bigger offices there will be no going back to London because of the expense they have already incurred. It is unlikely we would retain the Medicines Agency as there are plans made to move it within the EU but we would still benefit from being able to have new medicines they approve. Similarly with other Agencies.

We have damaged ourselves already but it will probably be more damage limiting to remain in than to chance that all these forecasts are actually right even if they take a different time scale to happen.

Welshwife Sat 10-Feb-18 15:52:10

I understood Jen to mean the next U.K. generation having a referendum to leave not another EU country.

mollie Sat 10-Feb-18 17:21:05

Fair, janeainsworth? That’s the point. Did any of us know how difficult negotiating a way out would be when asked to vote? I didn’t but can’t say that I would have voted differently. I didn’t for example appreciate the Irish border problem - did any of us? All I’m asking is if anyone who wants the country to change its mind and cancel the decision to leave has any idea of how things might pan out If they got their wish?

The country had to vote and the government agreed to abide by the outcome. Wouldn’t it be more helpful now if everyone accepted this and worked towards making the future a good one rather than trying to undermine everything the government is trying to do. Their job is hard enough as it is without your own team/country always kicking at your ankles?

durhamjen Sat 10-Feb-18 17:25:52

"Democracy is not democracy if you cannot change your mind."

mollie Sat 10-Feb-18 17:29:49

Very true. But only if there’s a very good reason to do so. Can’t see one myself.

durhamjen Sat 10-Feb-18 17:38:29

David Davis said it first. Even some Tory MPs are now saying that a second referendum is a good idea.

MaizieD Sat 10-Feb-18 17:54:12

All I’m asking is if anyone who wants the country to change its mind and cancel the decision to leave has any idea of how things might pan out If they got their wish?

I think there's quite a strong likelihood of some civil unrest whichever direction we go in, Leave or Remain.

If we Leave and it turns out to be as bad for the economy as predicted by the DEexEU's own figures I think that some of the unrest might well come from Leave voters who find that the promises of the Leave campaigners were of no value. I live in the NE, the area with the most gloomy set of predictions; I don't look forward to that possibility with any pleasure.

I think that Leaving will propel Scotland into voting for independence and God only knows what will happen in NI.

If we Remain I think a lot of people will heave a sigh of relief; after all, the EU doesn't impinge much on most people's daily lives so they won't notice the difference. But the tories will take a pasting for not being able to deliver Brexit.

Stay or Leave, I think the UK has become very divided and all sorts of racist nasties have crawled out of the woodwork and will not easily be persuaded to crawl back in..

varian Sat 10-Feb-18 18:03:43

I'd like to think if we decided to stay in the EU (even by a narrow margin) then The Sun, Express and DM would all support it saying "it's the will of the people!"

MaizieD Sat 10-Feb-18 18:04:59

varian grin

mollie Sat 10-Feb-18 18:08:58

Wanting a referendum is one thing, accepting the outcome is another. Are we saying David Davis thinks a new vote will be against exit or confirming exit? I suspect he thinks it will confirm the original decision. ‘some Tory MPs’ is a bit vague as there are Tory Remainers and Leavers...

durhamjen Sun 11-Feb-18 10:12:28

Shouldn't be any problem with the Express from now on, varian.
Hasn't it just been bought out by Mirror Group? I await an instant change in editorial stance.

jura2 Sun 11-Feb-18 10:40:45

We were indeed much better than equal before ... no Euro, no Schengen, and other special concessions.

And no-one can answer what would happen if we decided to not leave, as more and more people realise the price to pay would be so high (not the money we owe to EU), but jobs, economy, exports, security, environment, and so much more.

Would we keep the very special conditions and concessions we had, and no-one else had btw... No-one can even begin to guess.

mcem Sun 11-Feb-18 11:08:36

I was certainly concerned about the NI border and peace issues at the time of the referendum - one of the many reasons I voted to remain.
Have just seen Theresa Villiers challenged over her pre-referendum statement that there would be no reason at all to change borders arrangements after brexit.
Another example of a downright lie misinformation, but when stated as a fact was instrumental in distorting voters' opinions and encouraging them to vote on entirely the wrong basis!
Much like the figures on the bus but attracting far less publicity!
So many were willing to ignore NI because the issue doesn't seem to concern them directly and they were far too busy ranting about free movement etc.

durhamjen Sun 11-Feb-18 11:31:04

Yorkshire tea is a problem, too.

suzied Sun 11-Feb-18 13:06:49

Well the Tory party wouldn’t survive intact, that’s for sure, not that it’s likely to anyway the way things are going. There’s no way people are going to roll over and let the inept government lead us over the cliff just to make things easier for them. This whole messy exercise has cost billions and without any foreseeable benefits. I think the Labour Party’s concentration on domestic issues - e.g. water, power and railways should never have been privatised etc is definitely going to benefit them at the polls as so many people are now turned off by the government’s preoccupation with the fiasco that Brexit is looking like.

mostlyharmless Sun 11-Feb-18 13:09:25

I think a second referendum would be horribly acrimonious and divisive. Would 2016 Leave voters accept the new result if it was for Remain? Definitely not!

It would split the Tories into factions and perhaps see its demise and UKIP would come back with a vengeance.

Would Europe welcome us back? Not wholeheartedly I suspect. The future membership deal is extremely unlikely to be better than we had before.

Meanwhile, Theresa May is trying to fudge everything so that we can’t see that any eventual Brexit deal will probably be Brexit in name only as a hard Brexit would be so damaging to the country.

MaizieD Sun 11-Feb-18 13:15:17

Hasn't it just been bought out by Mirror Group? I await an instant change in editorial stance.

The snippet of news about this on the radio, on the day it was announced, said that there were no plans to change its editorial stance..

I would think that if they were going to change it they'd drip it in over a period of time. But we already have the Daily Fail and the Mail on Sunday with completely different viewpoints so perhaps Mirror group just won't bother.

MaizieD Sun 11-Feb-18 13:19:32

I think a second referendum would be horribly acrimonious and divisive. Would 2016 Leave voters accept the new result if it was for Remain? Definitely not!

Just so!

But, as I said before, I think that acrimony and divisiveness will be the order of the day whether we Stay or Go. The idiot Cameron blithely opened Pandora's box and the evils aren't going to jump back in. May he rot in hell