Grans Moral Maze

Quite right varian!

Just because a barbaric practice is sanctified by ancient religious tradition that does not mean it should not be questioned as a human rights issue in the 21st century.

If no religious rites were ever allowed to change we'd still see human sacrifice.

Someone was saying on Radio 5 yesterday that if boys needed to be 16 to agree to circumcision they would find it a far more painful and unpleasant operation at that age.

I suppose this means that there would be far fewer men being circumcised thus one of the traditions of the Jewish and Moslem faith would slowly fade away. They might feel their religion was being undermined.

Although Iceland probably has good intentions, in practice it could be viewed as a controversial anti Jewish and anti Moslem law.

Mind you, a lot of men would never let anyone know that they had problems in that area!

What do others think about the practice of babies having their ears pierced?

Point taken. The issue is whether its acceptable to remove bits from children for no medical reason, when they can't consent.

Absolutely and totally irrelevant, surely ...this is not about your personal likes or dislikes

I'm not fussy!

My ex was not cut, my current partner was for medical reasons at age about 6.
I know which I prefer:-)

Are you comparing Iceland to the Third Reich bluebell ?

Bit of a stretch giving that it is one of the most equal societies in the world and has one of the happiest and contented populations.

Iceland is also trying to eliminate all Downs Syndrome by aborting the babies, it’s very rare now
How close to genetic engineering
I think the world would be a poorer place with no Downs and what next ...blind, deaf, Sure I ve heard this somewhere before shouldn’t we all be blonde haired and blue eyed ......Just saying

So that is my whole point. There is no evidence that circumcision is necessary unless there are medical reasons. All the men in our family have never had any problem whatsoever, neither am I aware of any of my friends who have had problems. Why on earth would we deem circumcision necessary? It isn’t.

Gill I agree with your post on secular education.

whitewave .....who said that the US should be held up as model? I was simply saying that circumcision is done a lot in the US ( non Jewish) for the reason of preventing boys from a lot of painful infections.My own son when young, had a lot of problems to do with this, and now his son has a lot too, so they are thinking of circumcision ( or rather the GP is.)

Perhaps we should start by being tolerant of all religions and philosophies unless their practices involve harm to others, especially children, or to society as a whole.

If we take sixteen to be the age of consent, or nominal adulthood, no-one under sixteen should be subjected to physical abuse, and this could include circumcision, piercings or tattoos.

Animal suffering should be controlled, or if possible eliminated.

Yes that is the point jane the question is about modern day secular liberal evidence based thought.

Evidence-based practice is a 20th Century phenomenon, ww.
How do you think the rule of law managed before that?

I am unclear why what happens in USA can be seen as a model for the rest of the world or indeed if that is not what you meant then I am not sure of your point.

As MissAdventure says, it us more the norm in the US to have circumcision done early ( we have American friends)
It is to infections and thought to be easier for a boy to keep himself clean.

Of course shared values exist, but they will never work unless based on the rule of law. The rule of law cannot work in the long run without being based on evidence.

ww this
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_value

jane whose values?

To address another part of your discussion starter Whitewave, I am strongly against schools being able to have an admission policy of accepting pupils of one particular religion. It is only by being educated together, spending time together, that children will mix with others not of their faith , and many brave pioneers have proved the benefits of this in Northern Ireland. With few exceptions, the separation of children into faith schools is detrimental, particularly for girls. I am sure someone will come along to claim otherwise, but neither the Catholic church, Orthodox Jewish schools, Islamic schools are renowned for their advancement of female education. ALL children should attend non religious schools, whether state or independent, and any religious education deemed necessary by the family should be attended out of school hours. At my senior school, in a very Jewish area, the boys ( and some girls) attended Shul on Saturday mornings to prepare for their Barmitzvah, and I think this is how it should be, no parents should be able to deprive their child of the opportunity of a good education on religious grounds.

Anniebach, out of all the population of Stamford Hill 35,000 Hasidic Jews and their families are living on benefits, not living the high life by any means, but not looking for Work.
Some homes are being built in Canvey Island and they are being built for those Jewish people who want to relocate, I believe by a Jewish Development Company, it is obviously going to be difficult as they live a very different life to the current population of Canvey Island.
I wouldnt imagine that all of the 35,000 will relocate.!

Using evidence is all very well, assuming it is good quality evidence, and not distorted to fit political ends.
I would prefer that society was built on values.

I am in favour of being tolerant of different faiths, however, many of these practices started during a much different time. Circumcision which is not deemed medically necessary is, as far as I am concerned, on a par with FGM and should be banned. Rather than label all meat where the animal has not been stunned I would rather the practice of killing without stunning is banned