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Grans Moral Maze

(183 Posts)
whitewave Wed 21-Feb-18 07:41:07

Question posed by radio 4

Are the values of the modern liberal secular society, and those of in particular secular religion irreconcilable?

Examples quoted

Iceland’s intention to ban circumcision
British religious schools will soon have the ability to accept only those of a particular faith
A Jewish sect who are demanding that they not teach that the world is no more than 6000 years old
Many of us are eating halal meat where the sufferer has its throat cut without any other humane intervention.

I’ll leave the question like that and join in if anyone is interested

whitewave Wed 21-Feb-18 07:42:21

I’ve posed some question in my usual garbled way - sorry about that - hope they make sense!

Oopsadaisy12 Wed 21-Feb-18 08:09:42

This is a minefield!
Regarding the Halal meat , the Telegraph has a site that lists which supermarkets use Halal abattoirs , apparently all New Zealand lamb is Halal.
There is also a fairly large section of a certain faith that all live on benefits, as they are praying all day and so don’t have to go to work or interviews and most of these families have up to 12 children, There was a documentary recently
most of the time I have a live and let live attitude, but the Halal and the benefits issue really makes me cross.
Go figure.

Jane10 Wed 21-Feb-18 08:13:15

Understandable oopsadaisy.

whitewave Wed 21-Feb-18 08:19:23

Personally I feel the best way forward is to ensure that all decisions, and these will be political at the end of the day be purely evidence based.

You simply cannot run a modern society on what are historical, non-evidence based ideas, it doesn’t work and is the cause of suffering and violence.

mollie Wed 21-Feb-18 08:39:31

Oopsadaisy12 is this praying faith also found in the US? If so, I presume they are self supporting as there isn’t a welfare state over there. So, why can’t their own community pay them as I’m sure they won’t be praying for non-believers
like me.

The Icelandic vote is interesting. It’s a tiny country so the decision won’t affect many but to me it’s the equal opps side of the FGM debate. The Halal problem is awful and the cruelty of it goes against everything this country stands for so why we allow it concerns me. Less worried about the Jewish sect, there are lots of sections of the population who have no clue about our past and I can’t see that it impacts on us very much and they aren’t alone in their views.

How to satisfy all these conflicts? I think it ought to be for those who are affected to work round our way of life, not us bending to accommodate them. But that’s normal for the U.K. - trying to be all things to all men.

Iam64 Wed 21-Feb-18 08:42:19

I agree with you whitewave, that decisions should be evidence based. Slightly off post but, if policy makers followed evidence based research we wouldn’t be living with the bedroom tax or the huge cuts to the Nhs and other public services.
I don’t appreciate the use of halal meat in school dinners or most supermarkets, imposed without discussion with consumers. I but little meat but always from our local butcher.
Circumcision is an assault, whether on boys or girls because infants and young children can’t give informed consent. I recognise religious sensitivities but believe it’s time that medieval practices were left behind. The law should protect children and prosecutions should follow

Anniebach Wed 21-Feb-18 09:02:18

What is this faith where a large section live off benefits and have up to twelve children?

yggdrasil Wed 21-Feb-18 09:10:05


lemongrove Wed 21-Feb-18 09:10:56

Circumcision can often be a good thing though, boys get so many painful infections which they wouldn't do if the foreskin had been removed, surgery is often used for this very reason.In fact, in the US it’s done a lot, for that very reason( in non Jewish boys.)
IMHO anything that is not actually cruel or illegal should be allowed for any section, sect or group, without imposing bans.

MissAdventure Wed 21-Feb-18 09:21:35

I live in the place the documentary was made about those whose faith means they can't work.
Its rather a dilemma for me, considering I'm being railroaded back to work since losing my daughter and taking on my grandson. Sigh.

Oopsadaisy12 Wed 21-Feb-18 09:26:59

The documentary was on BBC recently regarding some members of the Hacidic (sorry probably spelt wrong) Jewish community relocating to Canvey Island, the documentary spoke to a gentleman who had no time to work as he had to pray all day and he said that they were encouraged to have lots of children, they were mostly living in poor quality housing but approx 35,000 were living on benefits. This was not the Daily Mail and is probably still available on Catch up TV
Now. I am the last one to denigrate any religious minority, however when I see my sick DD trying to make ends meet, I get rather annoyed, no matter what religion it is.
In my eyes circumcision is an assault just as FGM is, and no anaesthetic ? Come on guys.
Sadly, we accommodate so much in the name of religion, that sometimes I despair.

mollie Wed 21-Feb-18 09:41:32

I can’t imagine the Canvey Island Jews are getting any more benefit than anyone else now with this universal benefit and I suspect that the programme glossed over other issues that support these people’s claims to aid. Can you imagine anyone getting away with justifying a benefit claim that way? Another thread (don’t shoot me) is discussing the poverty trap so I can’t see how these people would be living the high life. Knowing them from Stamford Hill when I lived in neighbouring Tottenham many of them are impoverished.

Smithy Wed 21-Feb-18 09:49:09

That's dreadful MissA. How old are you - is it due to the change in pension age? What happened to fairness in society?
As for halal - I've not eaten meat for at least 30 years and can't imagine why anyone wants to it's so unhealthy, but that's how I see it.

Jane10 Wed 21-Feb-18 09:53:23

I entirely agree whitewave. Evidence based approach is vital.

FarNorth Wed 21-Feb-18 09:55:55

I can't see the DWP paying out benefits for any length of time, to people who aren't doing what they're told to find work.

MissAdventure Wed 21-Feb-18 09:56:40

I'm working age still, Smithy, so as a single parent I need to work.
I just don't feel up to it yet. sad

Anniebach Wed 21-Feb-18 09:57:09

The Island has a population of 38,000 and 35,000 are living on benefits ?

GillT57 Wed 21-Feb-18 09:57:55

Hassidic Jews Annibach. The programme was about some of them looking for new homes in Canvey Island as Stamford Hill is getting too crowded. I always like to think of myself as tolerant, but this did boil my blood I am afraid. The greatest achievement for a Hassidic Jewish parent is to have a son become a Talmudic scholar, a position which involves study, and no paid employment. The result of this is the women working part time, while raising huge families, and the chief income source being HB and WTC. I do resent this.

nightowl Wed 21-Feb-18 10:02:52

In New Zealand all animals have to be stunned before slaughter. There is no exemption for halal slaughter. Therefore New Zealand halal meat should be perfectly acceptable to meat eaters in the U.K. There is no reason why the same rules about stunning can’t be implemented in this country.

MissAdventure Wed 21-Feb-18 10:05:50

I think the slaughter method should be clearly marked on meat, and in anywhere that cooks or sells meat.

Anniebach Wed 21-Feb-18 10:06:01

I am not speaking of their faith, I am questioning how 35,000 in a community of 38,000 are living on benefits

whitewave Wed 21-Feb-18 10:16:06

It can’t be halal if the animal is stunned.

With regard to circumcision - Iceland is banning circumcision in all circumstances except medical need.

Evidence based - sensible.

whitewave Wed 21-Feb-18 10:17:58

I think really we need to look a bit more carefully at the island of benefit claiming Jewish people.

Where in the DWP are there rules that excempt people of faith?

MissAdventure Wed 21-Feb-18 10:18:54

I think the argument that circumcision prevents infections and so on is akin to removing healthy breasts to prevent breast cancer, or vulva, in case of problems.