Grans Moral Maze

Parents have a duty to "educate their children otherwise", if they are not in a recognised school.

If those unregistered "schools" can't be touched, because they are not officially schools at all, why can't the parents be investigated re providing their children with an adequate education?

If children at those "schools" don't even know the English language, they can't be said to be getting an adequate education for the country they live in.

I probably should say that I live in Scotland, where every child is entitled to go to their nearest school, irrespective of who or what they are.

They didn't choose it, in the end. My GS isn't due to start school until this summer. They went to an open day and were told by staff that there'd be no point in them applying because GS didn't fit any of the criteria except it was their nearest school. My DIL isn't white, British or Christian and she felt very unwelcomed by their attitude, that her face didn't fit.

I live nearly 600 miles away so I don't know the ins and outs of it all but I think places go to children of people who belong to the church, those who attend other CoE churches in the area, siblings, cared-for children (though there will be vanishingly few of those because there's a lot of money in the area) and who live closer to the school. People want the school because it has good reports and provides out of hours care but thankfully so do other schools in the area and they've found somewhere else for him, further away.

So why do you think the school your GS wanted is over subscribed SueDonim and why did his parents choose it?

I wasn't aware that I'd suggested parents don't have the responsibility and duty to do their best by their children.

I'm merely saying that religion or lack thereof shouldn't be a factor in state education and I know I am not alone in thinking that.

Parents make all kinds of choices for their children, faith/no faith etc being one of them. It's one thing to believe that Religion should not be a criteria for school admission, another to suggest that parents don't have the responsibility and duty to do their best by their children. Providing religion isn't used to control children it isn't going to harm them. Children can make choices in their mid childhood, early teens and adult life if they're given the opportunity to consider the faith issue in a balanced and caring manner.

Religion shouldn't be a criteria at all. No child chooses their religion.

I don't see we can complain is a school is oversubscribed and we don't meet the admission policy for whatever reason. Our C of E high schools are both oversubscribed and families who don't reach the Church admission and involvement in community issues policies, don't get in. The schools give priority to looked after children, children with special needs etc .

This school is oversubscribed. They live within catchment but have been told that because they don't fulfill any other criteria he won't get a place. It's not his fault he's not of the prescribed faith and has no older siblings etc!

They've found another school, more welcoming school, which hopefully he'll be happy at.

Actually unless it is oversubscribed a state schoolcannot deny a child admission on the grounds of religion. Admission policy is usually children of school's faith and their siblings, communicant members of other religions and then the rest.

Trisher, as I understand it, the reason for the success of many CoE schools is believed to be down to a strong community spirit. You find the same thing in small village schools. People know each other and have much in common.

It may be true for other religions, too, but the CoE is the only one I know about myself.

I'd still like all state schools to be completely secular in character. If people want a religious education for their children they should pay for it. My own grandson can't go to a particular school where he lives because he isn't of the 'correct' religion, yet his parents have to pay taxes to find that same school.

Religion as a subject should be taught in schools, of course. Understanding history would be impossible without it.

And it is sometimes very difficult to decide when to interfere. I once saw a head teacher hiding in the staffroom and pretending not to hear when a 10 year old who had been in serious trouble was complaining loudly that her mum had hit her when she collected her. As the head said, "If I hear her I should do something, but I'm not the one who will have to deal with her when she's a teenager.
Some parents are doing their best but have huge problems with the area and peer groups.

varian Where do you draw the line between respect for the family and protection of the child?

Very good question and one that I’m sure all professionals involved with children struggle with.
At one end of the scale we saw the forcible unjustified removal of children from their homes in Cleveland the late 80’s when paediatricians made false diagnoses of child sex abuse, and at the other end the tragic cases where professionals failed to act in time to save a child from the most horrendous abuse.

The stock answer is that action and intervention should be ‘in the child’s best interests’ but working out what those are in both the short and the long term, and what the consequences may be of a particular course of action, must be in many cases extremely difficult.

I'm not really in favour of faith schools, but having taught in some I have to say that the established ones have usually a very special ethos and an excellent track record. I have no idea why. It may be a mixture of staff dedication (they tend to be people of faith with a vocation), shared aims and principles or something else entirely. I have seen the same ethos in some secular schools, but less often. It's why faith schools tend to be oversubscribed.
That said I would still like to see the end of them. And as for the unregulated ones-unbelievable.

Me too!

I agree Iam64.

I may be one on my own here but, I believe teaching comparative religions to GCSE level could help reduce the indoctrination of children who only mix with people of their own faith. My children went to a C of E high school where comparative religions were taught. The teaching staff were enthusiastic and open to discussions on all faiths or none and to the complexities involved. I feel they benefitted from that but I'd also be entirely at ease of all faith schools were banned. Our community would be losing a brilliant local resource but it's the unavoidable conclusion that other faith schools which exclude anyone who doesn't follow their faith, teach that their faith is the only one etc etc would close and that can only be a good thing.

No child is born with a religion. We should be giving them the opportunity to explore what is right for them in inclusive secular schools where religion is taught impartially.

And we should say to hell with religious sensitivities - if people with a faith want to teach that to their children then that is fine, but they must not expect that it should be taught to others.

I totally agree mostlyharmless. I was brought up in the West of Scotland where there was a blue/green "colour bar" and I believe that the system of religious aparhtiedt in schools still exists today. All children should be entitled to an inclusive integrated education.

On the subject of more mainstream religious schools, I think the example of Catholic v Protestant schools in Northern Ireland and their role in setting one community against another, is a major reason for keeping religion out of schools.

This is really quite shocking. These schools need to be registered and monitored.

Isn’t there an obligation to ensure the safeguarding of the pupils? There’s a huge emphasis on this in main stream schools.
I’m also worried that the whereabouts of the children going to these “schools” are not known. Children could go missing or be the subject of abuse or slavery.

well that won't happen will it
No, it's too late.

But seriously - the real issue here is that we should be a secular society and that there should be no faith schools at all - well that won’t happen will it?

Oh yes Labour MP criticises Jewish schools - that’ll end well won’t it?

SueDonim
Good link. Why am I not surprised that the mother in the article got no joy from Hackney council.
Perhaps she could write to Diane Abbott, she's the MP for Hackney.
On second thoughts, she won't get any joy there. Same mindset as my friend in my post above.