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Corbyn's Elasticity

(1001 Posts)
Primrose65 Wed 28-Mar-18 21:23:27

A continuation of Momentum/Intertia/Magnetism.

Elastic? Plastic? Or at breaking point?

A thread for Corbyn lovers & haters

whitewave Tue 03-Apr-18 20:31:38

gg I don’t think people like Odoni are screaming in the wind, in fact I think that after the initial madness, people are actually beginning to give much more thought to exactly what is being said are realising the exploitation and manipulation of the Jewish population by the MSM for a particular unpleasant political agenda.

Thinking people are also appalled at the narrative put out by the bbc which comes directly from guido Fawkes a known racist.

Eloethan Tue 03-Apr-18 20:11:29

anniebach You say we need a centre party, that Blair won three elections through taking the party to the centre and that Kinnock fought against the militants.

Kinnock may well have battled with the militants but it didn't earn him any brownie points so far as the press was concerned. Coming up to the election, as is customary, there was a deluge of anti-Labour/anti-Kinnock articles, with the Sun at the forefront. Murdoch boasted "it was the Sun wot won it" [the election for the Conservatives], having, on the day before the election, plastered this headline on the Sun's front page next to a photo of Kinnock "will the last person to leave Britain please turn off the lights". Some say his influence was exaggerrated but it goes to show that, whatever leader Labour has, the Conservatives can rely on their press chums to attack the Labour Party.

It was a different story with Blair and "New Labour". We can only make an educated guess as to what transpired between these two when Blair flew to Australia to seek Murdoch's blessing. According to Alastair Campbell's books "The Blair Years", Kinnock erupted in fury when he heard of Blair's dealings with Muroch, saying

""It won't matter if we win as the bankers and stockbrokers have got us already by the fucking balls. And that is before you take your 30 pieces of silver."

When Campbell protested that he and Blair had given nothing to Murdoch, Kinnock responded angrily: "You will. And he will take it. You will get his support and then you will get the support of a few racist bastards and then you'll lose it again the minute that we are in trouble."

GracesGranMK2 Tue 03-Apr-18 19:57:27

I am a Jew who is hurt and angered on a level I have rarely experienced before April 3, 2018 by Martin Odoni

I have been hurt down the years by comments Zionists have thrown at me, for being a Jew who opposes Israeli policy, and who does not think Zionism was a necessary ideal. I have been accused of being a ‘Palestinian shill’, an ‘assimilate half-breed’, and the ever-popular insult-of-choice, a ‘self-hating Jew’. (How this abuse is any more acceptable than explicit anti-Semitic terminology is quite mysterious.) I try to resist the temptation to blow up at Zionist-fanatics when they resort to this, but I have not always succeeded. This is because these are vicious insults designed to make me feel guilty, as though I have violated my own nature – as though they know better than I do what my nature is. But for all the hurt that causes, my stance on Israel has not changed.

I have long felt the suffering of the Jewish people has been exploited and manipulated for political purposes, including by Jewish, and more particularly Zionist, groups themselves. But never have I felt as personally sullied as by what has happened over the last twenty-four hours. Never have I felt as angry, hurt, exploited, or demeaned, by the use of anti-Semitism as a political football, as I feel right now.

Last night, by invitation, the Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn, observed a seder for Pesach with members of ‘Jewdas’. They are a group of leftist British Jews who are opponents of Israeli policies. After over a week of ridiculous hysteria against Corbyn over a remark he made years ago about a putatively anti-Semitic mural, he is now under constant attack for doing something that could hardly be more pro-Jewish.

‘Jewdas’, due to their opposition to Israel, are being spoken of in the same terms as the anti-Semites that Jeremy Corbyn supposedly supports (very untrue). That is the only reason that ‘Jewdas’ are being criticised.

This is yet another no-win-situation for Corbyn. Had he declined the invitation he had received, the headlines would have been, “NOW CORBYN SNUBS JEWS AT PASSOVER!!!” followed by lengthy twisting-of-details to present it as clinching evidence of his ‘anti-Semitism’. Because he accepted the invitation, and the media narrative requires that he needs to be presented as, at worst anti-Semitic, at best insensitive towards Jews, the group he visited must now be de-legitmised. The fact that the ‘Jewdas’ group has a track-record of criticism of Israel is thus used against them. The media, and right-wing politicians, are effectively intimating that, because ‘Jewdas’ say things that some other Jewish groups do not, they are ‘undesirable’ and that mixing with them is ipso facto insulting to Jews more widely.

There are too many reasons to list why this is ridiculous, the most glaring being the near-racist assumption of ‘homogeneity’ – that Jews are a sort of ‘Hive-mind’ people with no individual power-of-thought. Any independent thinkers are therefore ‘seditious’ almost. This is not only the narrative of hawkish Zionists, it is being leapt upon by opportunistic politicians and journalists who have nothing to do with Jewish communities at all. And the narrative has been expressed so persistently loudly since last night that it is beginning to stick. “Corbyn is prepared to mix with Jews,” goes the narrative, “but the ‘wrong kind’ of Jews. The kind that criticise Israel. That makes him even more of an anti-Semite.”

So, to be Jewish and a critic of Israel is to be a “wrong kind of Jew”. That of course means I personally must be “the wrong kind of Jew” too. Society’s expectations override the freedom to be an individual once more, like in Victorian times.

Now as I have mentioned before, I spent intermittent spells of my childhood being insulted for being a Jew of any kind. Now I find myself insulted for being a particular kind of Jew – the wrong kind. And the frightening realisation is that we are on a slippery slope, at the foot of which, people like myself will likely be told we do not ‘count’ as Jews, because we support the Palestinians against Israeli oppression.

You see why I am hurting?

I despair that many Jews are letting themselves – and the people’s history of suffering – be exploited in such a cheap, demeaning way. But then it is difficult for a Jew to fight it. In my position, and indeed the position of ‘Jewdas’ (which in this context is proving to be an unfortunate choice of name), there is a strong, demoralising threat of being seen as a traitor. And there is no one in prominent positions in the media or politics right now who is prepared to speak up for us. To speak up, that is to say, for people who know that the stigma of anti-Semitism is being cynically exploited, and feel personally hurt by it. No politicians seem prepared to resist the narrative. Even Corbyn’s allies in Labour like John McDonnell and Rebecca Long-Bailey seem reluctant to call out the deceit. The mainstream media clearly want to believe the ‘anti-Semitism-in-the-Labour-Party’ crisis is real and huge-scale, so will not give voice to anyone who points out why it is not, let alone lend credibility to the objection by pointing out how many of the dissenting voices are Jewish.

Dissenting Jews like myself are screaming-into-the-void. Which makes it hurt even more.

Were there ever proof that ‘anti-Semite!‘ is often a politicised shoutdown of voices inconvenient to Israel, this is it. The definition of ‘anti-Semitism’ is now so broad that it is poised to extend, not just to gentiles who disagree with Israel, but even to Jews who disagree with Israel.

No one will combat that, because the circular reasoning therein classes me as ‘the wrong kind’ of Jew. And who would want to listen to someone who cannot get ‘being Jewish’ right?

Jalima1108 Tue 03-Apr-18 19:44:34

Just love the moral outrage on here after all the hate and vitriol they have all been busy heaping onto Corbyn.
Three jokes directed at the Tory party have all the usual suspects jumping up and down in fury.

And for your information I have not directed any hate or vitriol on Corbyn, I just think he is not the right leader for what this country needs for the future.

And I am not a usual suspect (who is?) but that link was unfunny and vile.

Grandad1943 Tue 03-Apr-18 19:42:58

I genuinely believe that this whole anti-semitic tirade against Jeremy Corbyn is now in danger of "badly backfiring" against the media and other groups making the allegations.

I have stated earlier in this thread that I feel the allegations could cost Corbyn his leadership of the Labour party. However, having engaged with the Jewish community in a pre-arranged social event, he is then accused of associating with the wrong kind of Jews.

I feel the above brings back recollections of Network Rail advising that the trains cannot run because of the wrong kind of snow or wrong kind of leaves on the track.

Jeremy Corbyn is a socialist politician, who met and engaged with a left wing group of Jewish people. That to my mind and the minds I am sure of many others would be exactly what I would expect him to do.

He has engaged with the Jewish people in his constituency in the face of the anti-Semitism allegations against him. That, I believe is how people now see it, and the tirade against him now very much appears as right wing Jewish groups and media grinding a political axe undercover of anti-semitism.

For the first time today in this whole long running sad saga, the agenda has run in Jeremy Corbyns favour as those against him overplayed their hand.

Jalima1108 Tue 03-Apr-18 19:42:00

I thought it sick, if that had been said of Corbyn I very much doubt it would be viewed as satire by ww.
I'd never say it in satire or jest about anyone.

Immolation belongs to a bye-gone era I hope.

Bridgeit Tue 03-Apr-18 19:03:59

Again I agree, GG, I thought much the same as you have posted. Sadly I assumed we were all above a certain age/stage to be be so infantile & ugly .

GracesGranMK2 Tue 03-Apr-18 18:58:39

But, Bridgit, you will find that is always the other person. It's useless.

There is something nasty and undemocratic going on in this country. It will rebound and it could well be to something even nastier and even less democratic and yet we think Gransnet matters. It's actually just as money making venture that uses us as its raw material - and we let it continue for as long as we post on here. No one actually cares.

Bridgeit Tue 03-Apr-18 18:53:45

For once I agree with you GG it certainly IS like a children’s playground shame on you who think you are so knowledgeable but don’t have any decency in you !

Bridgeit Tue 03-Apr-18 18:51:51

Doesn’t matter who it’s directed it at , it is insighting violence & hatred , haven’t we had enough of this already .?

GracesGranMK2 Tue 03-Apr-18 18:49:33

I'm afraid we have seen where the BBC places itself Yggdrasil. It's disappointing but, I suppose, not surprising.

Ignore them whitewave. Let's face it we are not going to agree and there are posters who will drag up any sh*t they can - true or untrue, it doesn't matter as long as they can attack Corbyn and anyone who doesn't attack him too. It's like a children's playground on GN these days.

whitewave Tue 03-Apr-18 18:44:45

Just love the moral outrage on here after all the hate and vitriol they have all been busy heaping onto Corbyn.
Three jokes directed at the Tory party have all the usual suspects jumping up and down in fury.

yggdrasil Tue 03-Apr-18 18:31:51

The BBC News just claimed that the left-wing Jewish group was anti-semitic. (A direct quote from the far-right site Guido Fawkes.
Just how is a Jewish group anti-semitic? Unless there is a new definition now, you have to be the right sort of Jew? angry

Anniebach Tue 03-Apr-18 18:29:37

I thought it sick, if that had been said of Corbyn I very much doubt it would be viewed as satire by ww.

Bridgeit Tue 03-Apr-18 18:22:26

What exactly does it ‘Work’ other to insight hatred & predjuduce?and for any one wanting to tell me to lighten up grow up etc etc please do t bother

Bridgeit Tue 03-Apr-18 18:20:01

I am appalled that anyone let alone any one on GN could possibly find anything remotely funny in an alleged joke about draining blood filling people up with petrol & setting them on fire! Shameful !

whitewave Tue 03-Apr-18 18:07:22

It sounds that Corbyn was correct after all over questioning them Salisbury killing.

Johnson lied. He appears unfortunately to be a serial liar. Wasn’t he pulled up for lying in parliament?

whitewave Tue 03-Apr-18 18:00:50

It is called satire jalima and is always meant to shock.

Satire is often vulgar and shocking that’s what makes it work. It is more prevalent in periods of political flux, and when one group is under threat or attack from another. Historically there has been far worse than the posts you are objecting to.

Much of the creative and literary output during such a period is shocking and to some unpleasant. But if we continue as we are I am afraid it will become more and more prevalent.

lemongrove Tue 03-Apr-18 17:56:34

I’m not at all surprised.

Jalima1108 Tue 03-Apr-18 17:38:24

"A little light relief
If that is light relief and humour then I dread to think what kind of world we would live in if it becomes the norm.

I'm quite surprised at your link whitewave, I always thought you were much nicer than to laugh at something like that.

whitewave Tue 03-Apr-18 16:59:40

Tom London tweeted

I am appalled by Woodcock Tory MP behaviour.

Mr Woodcock, I am a Jew who supports Corbyn, loathes Trump and outraged at the Sharville like behaviour of Israeli soldiers mass shooting unarmed Palestinians.
How dare you criticise me as not a good Jew! How dare you”

Primrose65 Tue 03-Apr-18 16:46:01

That's a pretty dangerous statement ww. Are you happy for it to be applied when you're the butt of the joke? Or is it just for other people?

That's the sort of attitude that leads to the rubbish that's posted from twitter, leads to bullying and contempt for others, because 'it's funny and humour is subjective'.

It's not a game I'd like to play, thanks.

whitewave Tue 03-Apr-18 16:39:52

pogs humour is so subjective isn’t it? Especially political humour which is always guaranteed to annoy the opposition.

May I gently suggest you don’t “open” my links in future. I will give fair warning for those whose sensitivities would be hurt.

POGS Tue 03-Apr-18 16:27:15

Grandad 1945

Thank you for responding.

An interesting view and one I can possibly share with but time will tell.

POGS Tue 03-Apr-18 16:19:59

white wave

" pogs if the links that you are looking at prove to be nothing more than foul mouthed rants or fake news then you need to point this out not keep it to yourself.

Smear by innuendo isn’t particularly attractive. You need the courage to say exactly what you mean."
----

As you ask me to 'point them out' I am happy to oblige.

I found your link for example on Mon 02-Apr-18 22:45:13 to be hardly 'light relief' as you called it. Your link says this for those who do not read links:-
---

"A little light relief

pbs.twimg.com/media/DZzfhYlW4AA1dOj?format=jpg "

' A visitor to a hospital is stopped by a member of staff in the car park.

"Sorry to bother you, but during a visit by the the Health Secretary to the hospital today , some of the staff and patients have taken Jeremy Hunt hostage and are so angry , they're threatening to DRAIN ALL HIS BLOOD , FILL HIM UP WITH PETROL and SET HIM ON FIRE unless he does something about the staff shortages and the NHS crisis. So we're asking around for donors in case the worst comes to the worst and he needs a transfusion. Would you be willing to donate?"

"Sure what type do you need?"

"Any type will do, unleaded, 4 star, diesel"
-

The following link is about Theresa May has died and gone to heaven and St Peter tells her to 'Fuck off'.

I think suggesting some posters look into a mirror is pretty mild to be honest. Then again I suppose one persons 'light relief ' is different to another's.

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