Corbyn's Elasticity

Dromey was caught up in the donations scandal, that would be raked up again , and he hasn't got what it takes

I think a woman , shift the male dominance of the party , not Thornberry and certaintly not Abbott , she may change her hair style again

I am beginning to believe that this issue may "eventually" bring Jeremy Corbyn down. However, there is little chance of anyone associated with the Blair, Brown or Milliband structures becoming leader of a dramatically changed Labour party.

However, within that there are a very few who are respected across the whole Labour movement. One such person would be Jack Dromey who came up through the TGWU trade union from shop steward to senior national organizer, and then went on to become the national finance secretary for the Unite union when it was formed doing a great job.

He entered Parliamentary in 2010 and became a shadow minister in the Milliband structure, though often not agreeing with the "soft socialism" put forward in that era.

Dromey and one or two with similar experience to his own have knowledge and experience of the Labour movement from grassroots to Parliamentary party. Where re-organization would seem to be required in the light of such rapid growth in membership, Dromey for me would be the person for the job.

He undoutedly would work well with the newly elected Genetal Secretary Jennie Formby and that would make quite some team both in organisation and policy making influence.

However, age may be against Jack Dromey so he may be reluctant to take on such responsibility, but it is now beginning to be discussed who in that small experienced group could replace Jeremy Corbyn if things continue to go badly

Now off to the pub doubtless to discuss more of this with work colleagues.

I have to go out but I think my conclusion to my first question is that the only law involved with the recent anti-Semitic issue is employment law - which is notoriously lengthy and leading to counter claims in my experience. Any additional comments, especially any relevant knowledge, would be gratefully received - by me at least.

My next question would be - would what was posted on social media be illegal elsewhere?

Yggdrasil I will no more be persuaded by this than by the right banging me over the head (not that I am suggesting you are doing that) with what they believe.

What everyone seems to miss is that to persuade someone it is useful to know what they are thinking that makes them feel a party does not represent them, not keep telling them what you are thinking. By the time it comes to an election that is all you can do but surely the parties should be doing bit of listening at the moment.

Do you suppose I haven't looked at the LP manifesto? Do you suppose I haven't listened to what has been said? I have said that for the next election, so far, I think we need to move to the left but I have concerns in doing that.

True Gilly,

I would have kept my LP membership if DM had become leader . I’m sure he would have been PM by now. Instead the unions wanted his puppet brother which was where it all went wrong in my opinion.

GG: This is the Labour Manifesto

labour.org.uk/manifesto/

Now there is a great deal of pages and things to look at here, but I think you will find that it does actually promise what you said you wanted. Of course, they have to be elected first. but there is a definite desire within the country for this, rather than austerity and more cuts.

I can't copy all the bits out here, obviously

Not "OK" for me Yggdrasil as I am not hearing all that description. Saying "for the many not the few" to me - although I hope for that - will not change my opinion. How about actually discussing it?

but Corbyn said in his email this week the party is inclusive Yggdrasil. You don't agree

Thanks Primrose , I hadn't checked the speakers this year because I can't get there , damn it

Yes he's there this year Annie

www.hayfestival.com/p-14052-david-miliband-talks-to-jim-naughtie.aspx

GraceGran said but there is a place for a social democratic party, a "combination of free market capitalism with a comprehensive welfare state and collective bargaining at the national level with a high percentage of workers belonging to a labour union; and state provision of free education and free healthcare as well as generous, guaranteed pension payments for retirees funded by taxation."

And that is just what Jeremy Corbyn, and Momentum want and what the right wing will go to any lengths to stop
For the many , not the few, OK ?

Primrose , he is at the Hay Festival? How can I get there this year , never miss it. Want to hear him.

What an agonising position for left of centre MP's , they are loyal to their party but watching it being destroyed , can't match the Unions bank rolling Corbyn , I feel such sorrow for them

Perhaps those legal secretaries should join GN, they have rather a lot of input here ?

Thank you Grandad. That helps clarify some of the views I was beginning to form.

Firstly, I have heard no one be accused or arrested for Inciting Racial Hatred so I assume nothing has gone that far or we would have seen the police involved.

There are two areas where I can see a possibility for follow up. Firstly, and the Conservatives have had to deal with this too, is bullying. I think you were saying this would apply in the case of either tranche of the membership under the Duty of Care, but I may have got that wrong (it is very complicated).

The second, which I think could only be applied to those who are employed - but again I'm not sure - would be misconduct. This could, I believe, result in anything from a formal warning to dismissal.

If this is right then in both cases no one could be summarily dismissed as the media and the anti-Corbyn lobby have asked for - or could they. The only time I have had proximity to such cases at work people were suspended on full pay but that was when it was obvious and gross.

Perhaps someone could tell me where I am right and where I am wrong on this.

I would guess that's exactly what has stopped it happening so far Annie. I'd also guess that split has been well analysed and key lessons have been learnt. They would need a few backers with very deep pockets too. I don't think it is out of the question. David Miliband is back in the UK soon - I wonder if he'll be meeting up with some old pals on his way to the Hay Festival this year?

The far left must be celebrating. Momentum has more members than the Tory party, smart move fooling the young . So the next election we will have Tory, Libs, Labour and Momentum parties

They should have done it under Blair, Primrose. It's about time they realised they tried to steal a party. It will be interesting to see where they differentiate themselves. I think there are some who like the attachment to unions - who were the life-blood and parent of the LP - and some who do not see their left of centre politics in that way. Just attacking Corbyn and the Labour Party will not win them votes (certainly not mine) but there is a place for a social democratic party, a "combination of free market capitalism with a comprehensive welfare state and collective bargaining at the national level with a high percentage of workers belonging to a labour union; and state provision of free education and free healthcare as well as generous, guaranteed pension payments for retirees funded by taxation."

Much as that is what I want to see I do not blame Corbyn for taking the Labour party in the direction he has. He is voicing the views of a section of voters. Keep attacking him while offering nothing different and they will go nowhere. Sadly I do not see anyone of the stature of Roy Jenkins, David Owen, Bill Rodgers and Shirley Williams to lead a new centre party - perhaps others do.

True, and the Labour Party was in the wilderness for fourteen years, both events caused by the far left trying to take over the party , now the far left has taken over the party.

THe Labour party split once before, the SDLP didn't last very long.

GracesGranMK2

Can I ask a question. This is not anything other than a question to which I would like to know the answer to.

What laws have been broken?

GracesGranMK2, in regard to what legislation has been infringed in the anti-semitism debate within the Labour party, then perhaps to widen this discussion may add some clarification.

Throughout the Labour movement there are two distinct sectors. The first of those would be the staff sectors, which would consist of personnel fully employed within such bodies as Central Offices, the General Secretaries offices and Reginal/District offices. The second sector would be the much larger Lay sector, which consists of those that are not directly employed within the Labour movement but carry out work on the movements behalf. The formost of the foregoing would be such persons as Branch Chairpersons, Branch Secretaries and activists on controlling committees etc.

In the first sector, should any member of staff carry out an act of bullying, harassment, or racism against another member of staff within the office or even on social media outside of working time, then that offence would be encompassed under such legislation as the fairness at work act or the Health & Safety at Work act (Employers Duty of Care section). in the foregoing, the perpetrator would be subject to the organization's disciplinary procedures which may conclude in dismissal from employment, depending on the severity of the offence.

However, should a lay member of the Labour movement carry out an act of racism, bullying or harresment against another lay member, then the above would not apply as lay members are not directly employed by the organisation. In that, the only action Central office could engage in would be to seek to expel the offending member, but that action may well have to involve the members branch or constituency party. Outside the foregoing the police or other civil authority could take action under criminal or civil legislation depending on the severity of the offence (Incitement to racial hatred legislation etc).

That stated, matters become even more complicated should it be that a lay member of the Labour party or a trade union carried out an act of racism, bullying etc against an employed staff member. In that, no disciplinary action could be carried out against the perpetrator short of expelling that member from the organisation, but the staff member would be entitled to protection under the Employers Duty of Care legislation (part of the H&SAW act)

Hopefully, GracesGranMK2 the above demonstrates the problems Jeremy Corbyn and his office along with the General Secretaries offie are struggling with in the anti-semitism situation.

There are quite a few of us working in the office this morning, even though it is Easter Saturday, so I have just asked two of our legal Secretary's to look over what I have written above and they both concur with my analysis

The act of asking their opinions is likely to cost me a couple of drinks when we all depart for the pub later (LOL).

Now back to work

I agree gillybob I think he has the skill to unite and move forward and would be a good leader. I listened to Any Questions yesterday and Tristram Hunt mentioned a new third party. I still think there is a chance the LP will split - Corbyn is a divider after all.

Any excuse to libel Corbyn, no matter how false.

Gordon’s labelling of Ahmed as an anti-Semite comes amid a sustained assault on Jeremy Corbyn by the British mainstream media, who have accused the Labour leader of not doing enough to stamp out anti-Semitism within the party.

However, research by YouGov shows that anti-Semitic views by Labour voters has actually declined dramatically since Corbyn became leader, with the data also showing that Conservative and right-wing voters appear to hold significantly higher proportions of anti-Semitic views that their left-wing counterparts.

But now with Gordon’s branding of the prominent Corbyn supporter Ahmed as anti-Semitic, coupled with data that clearly shows anti-Semitism is a far bigger problem amongst right wing parties (who are generally supportive of Israel over Palestine) – suspicions that supporters of Israel may be using such tactics in order to silence legitimate criticism of the Israeli government’s deadly actions could well be further fueled.

evolvepolitics.com/israel-just-killed-15-palestinian-protestors-and-a-prominent-corbyn-supporter-got-called-anti-semitic-for-mentioning-it/

ad hominin Annie.